Worship of the Valar

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:36 am

Eldorion wrote:
Kenelm wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

Given that the members of this site are spread all over the world, we have only your word that your rituals (the "properly performed" ones) have revealed that The Silmarillion is a true myth.  Maybe you could give us some pointers on how to contact the Valar ourselves?

Firstly, you need to approach them with respect.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:37 am

Kenelm wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual- Kenelm

That is not what I said- I would love to see some proof of ritual working beyond the ways I have already mentioned.

What I am saying is that you, nor anyone else who has ever lived so far, can provide any proof at all that ritual works in the manner you speak of- contacting spirits.

You are making the claim, it is you who have to provide evidence for that claim. You have so far provided nothing which could be considered evidence.

The proof I can provide comes in the form of ritual, which we hold just behind, and literally a stone's throw from Tolkien's childhood home in Sarehole.
yeah, but we haven't been participating in these rituals, please tell us more. do they contact you? how do you know they're present?
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:38 am

Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.
if you could dig up some letters or something where Tolkien actually says that a valar came to him and "inspired" him, that would actually be a pretty good proof.

I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:38 am

Kenelm wrote:
Eldorion wrote:
Kenelm wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

Given that the members of this site are spread all over the world, we have only your word that your rituals (the "properly performed" ones) have revealed that The Silmarillion is a true myth.  Maybe you could give us some pointers on how to contact the Valar ourselves?

Firstly, you need to approach them with respect.
ok and then what.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:38 am

Recoveryanonymous wrote:I'm going preach some ELE right now and just agree to disagree.

Damn, RA, you're forcing me to vote you for mayor Mad

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:39 am

Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Recoveryanonymous wrote:Tolkien was a strong christian and had a deep love of language and mythology. I'm pretty sure that where the inspiration from his stories came. He drew on life experiences too I imagine. I think I read somewhere that Sam was inspired by the soldiers in WWI etc. Anyways, I think Tolkien's writing was genius, but that just means he was a good writer. I mean how does Christopher Tolkien factor into any of this and the parts of the Silmarillion he changed from The Lost Tales by his own admittance?  

They are not some sort of holy unchanging writ.
who are "they", please be more precise, it's a bit difficult to follow.

The writings, which you had just mentioned.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:40 am

Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.
if you could dig up some letters or something where Tolkien actually says that a valar came to him and "inspired" him, that would actually be a pretty good proof.

I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.
you doubt you could find such a letter where Tolkien stated that? then you argument about him having a vision doesn't hold much ground.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:41 am

The proof I can provide comes in the form of ritual, which we hold just behind, and literally a stone's throw from Tolkien's childhood home in Sarehole.- Kenelm

Crowley had a house round here, people used to do the same thing there- but if I may say with more reason, at least Crowley was known as a spiritualist (and most evil man in the world the shameless self publicist that he was).

But perhaps you could share the ritual you perform, or film such a ritual so I can see what sort of ritual you are conducting and in what manner and by which rules.


I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.- Kenelm

Or more likely you doubt it because Tolkiens letters are well documented and no such letters exist.


Last edited by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:41 am

Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Eldorion wrote:
Kenelm wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

Given that the members of this site are spread all over the world, we have only your word that your rituals (the "properly performed" ones) have revealed that The Silmarillion is a true myth.  Maybe you could give us some pointers on how to contact the Valar ourselves?

Firstly, you need to approach them with respect.
ok and then what.

Be guided by what they tell you.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by RA on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:42 am

Ringdrotten wrote:
Recoveryanonymous wrote:I'm going preach some ELE right now and just agree to disagree.

Damn, RA, you're forcing me to vote you for mayor Mad

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:43 am

Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.
if you could dig up some letters or something where Tolkien actually says that a valar came to him and "inspired" him, that would actually be a pretty good proof.

I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.
you doubt you could find such a letter where Tolkien stated that? then you argument about him having a vision doesn't hold much ground.

No, I doubt it would be accepted as pretty good proof, for the reason I stated.

In any case, I never said anything about a vision.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:43 am

How do we approach them, then? I tried praying to God once when I was a kid, didn't help me much. So is there any other way to contact a deity besides saying their name?

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:44 am

Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Recoveryanonymous wrote:Tolkien was a strong christian and had a deep love of language and mythology. I'm pretty sure that where the inspiration from his stories came. He drew on life experiences too I imagine. I think I read somewhere that Sam was inspired by the soldiers in WWI etc. Anyways, I think Tolkien's writing was genius, but that just means he was a good writer. I mean how does Christopher Tolkien factor into any of this and the parts of the Silmarillion he changed from The Lost Tales by his own admittance?  

They are not some sort of holy unchanging writ.
who are "they", please be more precise, it's a bit difficult to follow.

The writings, which you had just mentioned.
i did not mention the writings, RA probably did. And by writings you mean the books, letters etc. written by Tolkien? That he was inspired to write by a valar? 

edit: seemed i had to google "writ" to make sense of that sentence. 

so not holy? and it does change? the writings? que?
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:45 am

Ringdrotten wrote:How do we approach them, then? I tried praying to God once when I was a kid, didn't help me much. So is there any other way to contact a deity besides saying their name?

Approach them with respect, as I said.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:45 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.- Kenelm

Or more likely you doubt it because Tolkiens letters are well documented and no such letters exist.
yeah, my money's on that too.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:46 am

Need details Kenelm- what sort of ritual- circle magic, candle magic, meditative chanting magic, invocation- if so by what means- are there oils, smokes, waters used in the invocation, do you use magical paraphanelia like athames, wands, burners ect? Is there a fancy hat? (Ritual should always have at least one person in a fancy hat)


Last edited by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:47 am

Kenelm wrote:
Ringdrotten wrote:How do we approach them, then? I tried praying to God once when I was a kid, didn't help me much. So is there any other way to contact a deity besides saying their name?

Approach them with respect, as I said.

I can't approach them with or without respect without knowing how to make contact with them.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:47 am

Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Eldorion wrote:
Kenelm wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

Given that the members of this site are spread all over the world, we have only your word that your rituals (the "properly performed" ones) have revealed that The Silmarillion is a true myth.  Maybe you could give us some pointers on how to contact the Valar ourselves?

Firstly, you need to approach them with respect.
ok and then what.

Be guided by what they tell you.
well i respect them, they're pretty cool. 

nothing's happening. what language do they speak? 

am i doing something wrong? is there a specific way of how i approach them with respect?
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:48 am

Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Recoveryanonymous wrote:Tolkien was a strong christian and had a deep love of language and mythology. I'm pretty sure that where the inspiration from his stories came. He drew on life experiences too I imagine. I think I read somewhere that Sam was inspired by the soldiers in WWI etc. Anyways, I think Tolkien's writing was genius, but that just means he was a good writer. I mean how does Christopher Tolkien factor into any of this and the parts of the Silmarillion he changed from The Lost Tales by his own admittance?  

They are not some sort of holy unchanging writ.
who are "they", please be more precise, it's a bit difficult to follow.

The writings, which you had just mentioned.
i did not mention the writings, RA probably did. And by writings you mean the books, letters etc. written by Tolkien? That he was inspired to write by a valar? 

edit: seemed i had to google "writ" to make sense of that sentence. 

so not holy? and it does change? the writings? que?

Not holy, unchanging writ in the sense that the Bible or Koran are believed to be by their followers. Certainly holy though, since they are inspired.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:49 am

Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.
if you could dig up some letters or something where Tolkien actually says that a valar came to him and "inspired" him, that would actually be a pretty good proof.

I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.
you doubt you could find such a letter where Tolkien stated that? then you argument about him having a vision doesn't hold much ground.

No, I doubt it would be accepted as pretty good proof, for the reason I stated.

In any case, I never said anything about a vision.
it would be accepted as a very good proof if Tolkien actually wrote it on paper that a valar came to him and inspired him. 

you didn't say anything about a vision? then how did this valar come to Tolkien and talk to him and "choose" him on the basis of his talents?
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:51 am

Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Eldorion wrote:
Kenelm wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

Given that the members of this site are spread all over the world, we have only your word that your rituals (the "properly performed" ones) have revealed that The Silmarillion is a true myth.  Maybe you could give us some pointers on how to contact the Valar ourselves?

Firstly, you need to approach them with respect.
ok and then what.

Be guided by what they tell you.
well i respect them, they're pretty cool. 

nothing's happening. what language do they speak? 

am i doing something wrong? is there a specific way of how i approach them with respect?

I have a feeling you're not taking it seriously.

Quenya is a good language to use, if you're genuinely interested.

But, I'm going to bed now anyway. It's nearly 2am.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:51 am

No really, how do I talk so the Valar will hear? Do I sit and meditate? Do I speak their name aloud? Is the ritual necessary to get their attention or will they know that I'm trying just by me wanting to talk to them?

Kenelm wrote:Firstly, you need to approach them with respect.

Funnily enough, considering your emphasis on how different your religion is from the Abrahamic ones, I've heard that exact line from countless Christians.


Last edited by Eldorion on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:52 am

Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Recoveryanonymous wrote:Tolkien was a strong christian and had a deep love of language and mythology. I'm pretty sure that where the inspiration from his stories came. He drew on life experiences too I imagine. I think I read somewhere that Sam was inspired by the soldiers in WWI etc. Anyways, I think Tolkien's writing was genius, but that just means he was a good writer. I mean how does Christopher Tolkien factor into any of this and the parts of the Silmarillion he changed from The Lost Tales by his own admittance?  

They are not some sort of holy unchanging writ.
who are "they", please be more precise, it's a bit difficult to follow.

The writings, which you had just mentioned.
i did not mention the writings, RA probably did. And by writings you mean the books, letters etc. written by Tolkien? That he was inspired to write by a valar? 

edit: seemed i had to google "writ" to make sense of that sentence. 

so not holy? and it does change? the writings? que?

Not holy, unchanging writ in the sense that the Bible or Koran are believed to be by their followers. Certainly holy though, since they are inspired.
well the bible at least is written by a bunch of different people and is translated probably a million times, so no, it does change a lot.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:53 am

Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.
if you could dig up some letters or something where Tolkien actually says that a valar came to him and "inspired" him, that would actually be a pretty good proof.

I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.
you doubt you could find such a letter where Tolkien stated that? then you argument about him having a vision doesn't hold much ground.

No, I doubt it would be accepted as pretty good proof, for the reason I stated.

In any case, I never said anything about a vision.
it would be accepted as a very good proof if Tolkien actually wrote it on paper that a valar came to him and inspired him. 

you didn't say anything about a vision? then how did this valar come to Tolkien and talk to him and "choose" him on the basis of his talents?

They could have worked through him without him even being aware of it, though I'm not saying this was necessarily the case.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:58 am

Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.
if you could dig up some letters or something where Tolkien actually says that a valar came to him and "inspired" him, that would actually be a pretty good proof.

I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.
you doubt you could find such a letter where Tolkien stated that? then you argument about him having a vision doesn't hold much ground.

No, I doubt it would be accepted as pretty good proof, for the reason I stated.

In any case, I never said anything about a vision.
it would be accepted as a very good proof if Tolkien actually wrote it on paper that a valar came to him and inspired him. 

you didn't say anything about a vision? then how did this valar come to Tolkien and talk to him and "choose" him on the basis of his talents?

They could have worked through him without him even being aware of it, though I'm not saying this was necessarily the case.
so they sort of mind-raped Tolkien? O_O (sorry joke)

but what you are saying is basically that Tolkiens brilliant writing, coming from the growing sceptisism to the modern word also called modernism, influenced by his experiences in the trenches of WWI, his hatred towards the nazis, his love for the forests, nature, trees, languages, mythologys, his whole life-work, was just some valar, gods, that gave it to him? you're basically taking away all credit for his hard work and brilliance and giving it to the valar. it's like saying i am good at playing violin because God flowing through me, not because i practice hard every day for   12 years.
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