Worship of the Valar

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:03 am

That's why south west England is so rich in remains- Kenelm

I think you may need to recheck some facts there- I suggest starting with the Ness of Brogard-

Ness of Brodgar is an archaeological site covering 2.5 hectares (6.2 acres) between the Ring of Brodgar and the Stones of Stenness in the Heart of Neolithic Orkney World Heritage Site near Loch of Harray, Orkney, in Scotland. Excavations at the site began in 2003. The site has provided evidence of housing, decorated stone slabs, a massive stone wall with foundations, and a large building described as a Neolithic "cathedral" or "palace". The site may have been occupied from as early as 3500 BC to the close of the Neolithic period more than a millennium and a half later.
According to project manager Nick Card, the discoveries are unparalleled in British prehistory, the complexity of finds is changing the "whole vision of what the landscape was 5,000 years ago" and that "it’s of a scale that almost relates to the classical period in the Mediterranean with walled enclosure and walled precincts".

So it predates Stonehenge and the other English sites by a thousand years.

- or Skara Brae-

Skara Brae /ˈskærə ˈbreɪ/ is a stone-built Neolithic settlement, located on the Bay of Skaill on the west coast of Mainland, the largest island in the Orkney archipelago of Scotland. It consists of eight clustered houses, and was occupied from roughly 3180 BCE–2500 BCE. Europe's most complete Neolithic village, Skara Brae gained UNESCO World Heritage Site status as one of four sites making up "The Heart of Neolithic Orkney."a Older than Stonehenge and the Great Pyramids, it has been called the "Scottish Pompeii" because of its excellent preservation.

or Mae's Howe-

Maeshowe (or Maes Howe; Norse: Orkhaugr) is a Neolithic chambered cairn and passage grave situated on Mainland, Orkney, Scotland. It was probably built in around 2800 BC. It gives its name to the Maeshowe type of chambered cairn, which is limited to Orkney. Maeshowe is a significant example of Neolithic craftsmanship and is, in the words of the archaeologist Stuart Piggott, "a superlative monument that by its originality of execution is lifted out of its class into a unique position."

All these are earlier than similar finds elsewhere in the world, indicating that the Temple complex in Orkney was most likely the central source of the Circle technology that spread southwards, not the other way around.

All of the above have significant astronomical alignments or 'react' to celestial events (Mae's Howe for example has a specially aligned 'light box' above the entrance, that at the right time of year when Venus rises its light form a shaft straight down the passage entrance where it strikes and illuminates a wall of quartz crystal.

so stonehenge is basically a clock or a sort of calendar? makes sense..- Norc

In terms of what it does, how it functions and the information that can be read from it yes, thats precisely what it does.

There are plenty of single standing stones, or lines of stones whose purpose and meaning is not known- but full circles with henges work as astronomical clocks and calendars.

Celestial vents repeat- stars take a certain amount of time to 'move' across the sky, and they repeat these patterns, a stone circle allows you to make those observations over time and therefore predict them next time. They allow you to divide up and mark out the passing of the year, but even better you can do it in advance- so i the sun rises between certain stones at the start of spring you can see it moving there in the months leading up to it, and the distance between the stones allow you to determine when it will be in spring position ahead of time.
For a people who just discovered agriculture this is dynamite information to have.

'It was a ritual centre, with causeways, burials and all sorts of things going on there.'- Kenelm

I never said it wasn't- I said none of that made a blind of difference to if a stone circle works or not. They could all have turned up dressed as Elvis if they liked, it wont make a difference to the functioning of the stones. They worked fine for two thousand years between the people who built them moving on and us wondering about them without anybody conducting any rituals of any sort.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:06 am

Norc wrote:
where did he say that? and also, what do you mean by "earlisest story cycle"? if it was early, he perhaps changed it for a reason. Also, Tolkien was a christian (protestant at first i believe, but he was raised in catholism, some lore-master correct me if i am wrong) until he died, so no, his beliefs did not change during his life.

and when you said he was inspired, you also actually say that he made it up.

The earliest story of Eriol has the Elves tell him the names of the gods and goddesses, then explain to him that he knows them by different names, in his own native language.

If Tolkien's beliefs did not change during his life that would make him unique among humans.

He was inspired in the literal sense of the word. He did not make it up.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:09 am

He was inspired in the literal sense of the word. He did not make it up.- Kendalf

I think such a statement reduces the Prof work and what he put into it. Its his work, his hard graft, his imagination, his personal and professional beliefs, his love of languages that formed his writing.
To say it was all just inspired by a real Valar is to take away from and discredit Tolkiens lifes work in my view.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:11 am

He did not make it up. - Kenelm

Maybe he inherited Joseph Smith's golden plates and added a chapter or two of his own?

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:12 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:He was inspired in the literal sense of the word. He did not make it up.- Kendalf

I think such a statement reduces the Prof work and what he put into it. Its his work, his hard graft, his imagination, his personal and professional beliefs, his love of languages that formed his writing.
To say it was all just inspired by a real Valar is to take away from and discredit Tolkiens lifes work in my view.

On the contrary, he was chosen precisely because of those gifts and his hard work.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by RA on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:15 am

Chosen by what?

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:16 am

Recoveryanonymous wrote:Chosen by what?

The Valar and the Elves.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:17 am

Kenelm wrote:He was inspired in the literal sense of the word. He did not make it up.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/inspire he made it up he is a writer.

oh, you are actually saying a valar came and visited Tolkien and "inspired" him? not that he was inspired by other mythologys, religions and languages when he created Middle-Earth?
i would really really really love a source for that information, Kenelm, because that is total news to me. 

Kenelm wrote:If Tolkien's beliefs did not change during his life that would make him unique among humans.
i guess it does. he is rather unique. 


also, i guess anyone would doubt God during WWI and II, but he was a christian and his beliefs did not change, he believed in a God, in studying, in writing, in love, in storytelling, knowledge, languages. Pretty sure he didn't believe the Valar where real though.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:18 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:To say it was all just inspired by a real Valar is to take away from and discredit Tolkiens lifes work in my view.
yeah, agree.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:19 am

he was chosen precisely because of those gifts and his hard work. -Kenelm

Well all I can say is that I write a lot fiction, and if I were ever to get something published that became popular and then people started saying it was all inspired by characters in the fiction I had written, I would feel that was neither honest nor fair to the work put into the creation of the fiction.
And as a good catholic I think Tolkien would be horrified by the notion.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:20 am

Norc wrote:
Kenelm wrote:He was inspired in the literal sense of the word. He did not make it up.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/inspire he made it up he is a writer.

oh, you are actually saying a valar came and visited Tolkien and "inspired" him? not that he was inspired by other mythologys, religions and languages when he created Middle-Earth?
i would really really really love a source for that information, Kenelm, because that is total news to me. 

Kenelm wrote:If Tolkien's beliefs did not change during his life that would make him unique among humans.
i guess it does. he is rather unique. 


also, i guess anyone would doubt God during WWI and II, but he was a christian and his beliefs did not change, he believed in a God, in studying, in writing, in love, in storytelling, knowledge, languages. Pretty sure he didn't believe the Valar where real though.

Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:22 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:he was chosen precisely because of those gifts and his hard work. -Kenelm

Well all I can say is that I write a lot fiction, and if I were ever to get something published that became popular and then people started saying it was all inspired by characters in the fiction I had written, I would feel that was neither honest nor fair to the work put into the creation of the fiction.
And as a good catholic I think Tolkien would be horrified by the notion.

You think, but you cannot know.

Snorri Sturlusson was a Catholic, but that didn't stop him producing inspired writings on the Norse Pagan tradition.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:22 am

Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by RA on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:23 am

Tolkien was a strong christian and had a deep love of language and mythology. I'm pretty sure that where the inspiration from his stories came. He drew on life experiences too I imagine. I think I read somewhere that Sam was inspired by the soldiers in WWI etc. Anyways, I think Tolkien's writing was genius, but that just means he was a good writer. I mean how does Christopher Tolkien factor into any of this and the parts of the Silmarillion he changed from The Lost Tales by his own admittance?

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:25 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:29 am

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual- Kenelm

That is not what I said- I would love to see some proof of ritual working beyond the ways I have already mentioned.

What I am saying is that you, nor anyone else who has ever lived so far, can provide any proof at all that ritual works in the manner you speak of- contacting spirits.

You are making the claim, it is you who have to provide evidence for that claim. You have so far provided nothing which could be considered evidence.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by RA on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:30 am

What about the abandoned sequel, then?

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:30 am

Recoveryanonymous wrote:Tolkien was a strong christian and had a deep love of language and mythology. I'm pretty sure that where the inspiration from his stories came. He drew on life experiences too I imagine. I think I read somewhere that Sam was inspired by the soldiers in WWI etc. Anyways, I think Tolkien's writing was genius, but that just means he was a good writer. I mean how does Christopher Tolkien factor into any of this and the parts of the Silmarillion he changed from The Lost Tales by his own admittance?  

They are not some sort of holy unchanging writ.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:30 am

Kenelm wrote:
Snorri Sturlusson was a Catholic, but that didn't stop him producing inspired writings on the Norse Pagan tradition.
what even is this argument. he was not a catholic or in any way a catholic as we may think of it as he lived in the late 1100's. But that's not the point. The Icelandic Sagas he collected into the book called "Heimskringla" was not a vision from Odin, God of wisdom, it was based on icelandic kingsmenn's stories and collected "folklore" if you can call it that, songs. he was a skald. He was also a viking so "catholic" might be a bit difuse term. Christianity had just reached scandinavia and people where still adjusting to this new God, a judgemental God oposed to the helping gods in norse mythology.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:32 am

Kenelm wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

Given that the members of this site are spread all over the world, we have only your word that your rituals (the "properly performed" ones) have revealed that The Silmarillion is a true myth.  Maybe you could give us some pointers on how to contact the Valar ourselves?


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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:32 am

Kenelm wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.
if you could dig up some letters or something where Tolkien actually says that a valar came to him and "inspired" him, that would actually be a pretty good proof.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Norc on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:33 am

Kenelm wrote:
Recoveryanonymous wrote:Tolkien was a strong christian and had a deep love of language and mythology. I'm pretty sure that where the inspiration from his stories came. He drew on life experiences too I imagine. I think I read somewhere that Sam was inspired by the soldiers in WWI etc. Anyways, I think Tolkien's writing was genius, but that just means he was a good writer. I mean how does Christopher Tolkien factor into any of this and the parts of the Silmarillion he changed from The Lost Tales by his own admittance?  

They are not some sort of holy unchanging writ.
who are "they", please be more precise, it's a bit difficult to follow.
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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Kenelm on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:34 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual- Kenelm

That is not what I said- I would love to see some proof of ritual working beyond the ways I have already mentioned.

What I am saying is that you, nor anyone else who has ever lived so far, can provide any proof at all that ritual works in the manner you speak of- contacting spirits.

You are making the claim, it is you who have to provide evidence for that claim. You have so far provided nothing which could be considered evidence.

The proof I can provide comes in the form of ritual, which we hold just behind, and literally a stone's throw from Tolkien's childhood home in Sarehole.

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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:35 am


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Re: Worship of the Valar

Post by RA on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:36 am

I'm going preach some ELE right now and just agree to disagree.

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