Doctor Who [9]

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:44 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:cheers 
That's more likes than dislikes!
Although I haven't heard from Mrs. Figg or Petty yet...

Spoiler:
My first impressions were the new episode called Deep Breath was weak. The first half was pretty boring and I nearly switched off but I stuck with it and it got better. The second half picked up in interest as Jenna Coleman as Clara was allowed to act for the first time, which is saying something seeing as she had been in one Whole season with very little character development. But Clara carried the show and very well acted too. Just showed how criminally underused her talents were before. She suddenly became a real person rather than a plot device.

unfortunately this became one of the big negatives for me. Because Moffats episodes during the Smith era were very plot led, the characters being used to further the whizz bang fast pace, the personality of the assistant didnt matter so much, it was a case of witty one liners being shot off at speed, not very deep and meaningful. But now this new episode seemed to be wanting to be character driven, lots of time getting to know Capaldi and Clara as a team, the story was secondary, so it wasnt too surprising that the villains and plot were not too brilliant as they were just there in the background, what was important was the Doctor and Clara, getting to know each other. The problem is that Clara while being much more fleshed out just isnt as interesting a character as Donna or Rose once the 'Impossible Girl' thing has been discarded, she remains a bit bland so the whole episode fell flat.
Either they go back to shallow whizzbang or they get a more interesting assistant, or they give us a few surprises, for example who knew she was a control freak? that came out of nowhere.

The Paternoster crew is getting very tedious. Deep Breath is just a variation of Blink.

Capaldi was good, I much prefer him to Smith, no more flirting, no more hugging, no more sexual tension thats better. I like the way he said 'I am not your boyfriend'. I like his maturity and alienness, his introduction started off with a  quite plodding sequence, very lacklustre indeed, messy, but he got better, by the time they were in the restaurant this new Doctor had me sold. He is unknowable in a good way. It feels like a new era as regards the Doctor, but the storyline itself felt stale.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:08 pm

Figg!  cheers 


I will bung my thoughts on this one up later- so far I agree a bit with everyone in some respect!! Had Whovian company over the weekend, and a room full watching last night- and I really want the chance of a second viewing before I give my review.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:44 pm

Spoiler:
Basically. I thought Capaldi and Coleman were great but the material let them down. It hobbled them. Specially didnt like the Paternoster crew, they were pretty yawn inducing and stale, dont like the Lesbian thing being so in yer face. we have had Strax and his boy/girl thing forever, and the Jenny being 'painted' scene made me cringe a big fat cringe, does she really have to be portrayed as a dimwit? I like the new villain, seems a bit Cruella Deville.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Tinuviel on Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:57 pm

When I said Capaldi was hard to understand, it was his accent and the way he kind of slurs words together. But his energy and his acting were superb!
Spoiler:
I liked their conversations so much! I agree with Figgs I like the lack of flirting. It's more of a contest now between who is more stubborn, and that's a natural formula for good dramatic tension. He seems much more Tennant like. Maybe it was because this episode's plot reused "Girl in the Fireplace" villains, but he's got that quick to anger thing going for him, only he's not a goofball like Ten or Eleven. He's an adult. So that lends itself to the more interesting, adult conversations had in the episode.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Orwell on Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:53 am

Spoiler:
Must admit I think they played the 'age' thing too hard. I mean, it's obvious already and some of the Clara and Doctor conversation on the issue could have been trimmed. Made Clara seem a little shallow and the Fans need less hand feeding.  But I love Clara - not boring at all to me - and the new Doctor is good so far. Since Ecclestone, I've found the Doctor a bit hard to watch at times. Also, the Lesbian thing should have been left ambiguous I think for better effect.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:38 pm

Spoiler:
I agree, his age shouldnt have been made such a big deal of, one or two quips is ok, but if they are going to make his age an ongoing gag, its going to get stale and annoying very soon. Its sending out uncool messages considering they are already pandering to the pc brigade having lesbian mixed race marriages. Old and grey gags are just not very original, it also gets up the noses of fans over 40 who dont want reminding every 5 minutes of oncoming decrepitude.  Mad for fooks sake.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by azriel on Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:10 pm

Right on Figgy ! & talking about decrepitude I have to wear glasses for reading & when I was 40 I went for an eye test, well, when the optician was inches away from my nose with a bloody big lens thing in his hand ( & within kicking in the doo-dads after what he said !) he said to me " oh yes,well, once you reach 40 its all down hill from there really !" Mad what a shit !

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

Mad  smartarse opticians, its a bit like smartarse dentists school of thought, 'you know your gums shrink as you age' blah blah yackety yah. Or shop assistant smartarse, ''well long sleeved dresses are more flattering for the mature lady' (read bingo wings ) or worst of all smartarse makeup  sellers, 'this will Polyfill those wrinkles nicely' Evil or Very Mad They say all this to 35 year olds. Over 40s and you might as well just buy a Gucci winding sheet.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:25 pm

Haha, indeed!

This reminds me of a semi-developed theory I had going for myself a while back that attempted to show how dentists were the modern-day secular version of confession priests.

Similar to a visit to your local church to confess your sins to the priest and receive absolution, a dentist deals with the unpleasant aspects of your teeth (your sins) admonishes you for a break in cleaning diligence (your inability to toe the line of purity) and forces you to submit to painful dental operations (your own physical Hail Marys and Our Fathers penance).

The emotions you feel leading up to both encounters must be similar, and how you feel afterwards is incredibly alike: a sense of relief, and a feeling of goodness and cleanliness that lasts almost until your next appointment.

And, of course, dentists are pretentious dicks.
(Not to say that priests necessarily are, as the point of them is to guide and help other people, rather than simply make money off of our physiognomy. But still, one could imagine a vain priest.)

Clean teeth are the new standard of morality. Anyone who is anyone in acting or politics is careful to acquire whitened, perfect teeth; while crooked or stained teeth speak to a life of moral backsliding involving excessive coffee or cigarette consumption and a negligence bordering on slothfulness.

Anyway, that is to say, I don't much care for dentists. Razz
If this show was called Dentist Who I probably wouldn't watch it.

("Quick Clara, hold down this alien bicuspid while I drill out the radioactive cavity deposits with my sonic drill!"
"My goodness Dentist, you are so proficient with that astral calcium pick and so attractive in your Space Scrubs!"
"Nevermind that Clara, nevermind that... Quickly! Back to the TARDIS!" (Timely Anti-cavity and Root-canal Dental Intervention Ship))


Last edited by Forest Shepherd on Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Amarië on Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:58 pm

lol!

Saw Deep Breath yesterday.

Slightly random thoughts about Deep Breath:
Dinosaur + Victorian age = really obvious fan flirting. The Doc speaking Dinosaur is a copy/paste of the Baby speak ‘joke’. But the compassion for the dino was lovely, I really love this part of the Doctor and I am glad this will be part of the new Doctor as well.

Clara is getting a personality rather than just being a self-destructive plot device. Me like. Clara actually has a history with the Doctor, with all of them, so the ‘you are the one who knows him best’ line – while a bit cheesy - actually works with her. But it made no sense when Amy tried to pull that off with the Whale speech.

(I also like that what seemed to be brainless self-destructing time vortex bungee jump without a cord because ‘she already had done it’, now can be seen as a result of stubborn need to be in control. “Messing with the Doctor, ey? Not on MY watch!” Well at least I’ll choose to see it that way.)

I agree with Orwell with the emphasis on the age thing. Oh he’s old. Oh look I am old. Gosh I hope the new me isn’t old. Probe into Clara’s head to make sure we knew she only likes young muscular men worthy of a chapter in a Wholesome Tale and not old, grey, yucky, disgusting ones. Or skinny, bouncy ones either.

I don’t mind that Moff wants to go his own way, but is it really necessary to go to such lengths to spit on what has been done before? It’s is such poor taste! It’s even more strange since it is Moff who made Clara a lovesick puppy who DID tell her family that the Doc was her boyfriend.

I enjoyed seeing more of madam and wife, personality vise I mean. They are becoming a favorite of mine. Many good interactions between them, and with Clara. The veil thing worked surprisingly well even if the ‘sit in the chair’ was clearly recycled from Sherlock. (Then again so are Madam Lizardlock and miss Watson. But they seem able to make their characters into more than just copies.)

Newspaper gag was cute. I would have liked to see the “deduction” from the Doctor’s POV too afterwards, just for fun.

When a whole lot of machines have a blade at your neck and they all suddenly slump forward because they are disconnected... How do you not get cut?

So, thoughts of the new doctor.
New doctor has too much white in his eyes according to Finrod. “Who do you know who has so much white in their eyes?” Laughing

New doctor (is he 12 or 13?) reminds me more of Nine that the previous ones. If they can manage to not underline and highlight with a neon text marker how he is not flirting in every episode, then this is promising.

I hope they let him find his own way. It felt out of character for him to bounce about like 10 and 11 would have. The endless babble is typical Doctor, but I think it would have packed more of a punch if he was freaking out in a more rigid way.

I am not dreading this season like I did when the Ponds were around. I am actually looking forward to seeing more Clara and 12/13. But I will not expect anything more from this show than giggles, light entertainment and a bit of slap stick underpants humor. (I find it peculiar how hitting the Doctor in the nuts is ok with the BBC when, in the past, it was out of the question to suggest that he even had a gender.)

I hope they stay away from deep, emotional stuff. This died with DoctorDonna I guess and it failed miserably in the Ponds era. They should stick to comedy, light drama and chills of the ghost-stories-by-the-camp-fire type. There’s always GoT for that other stuff.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:43 pm

Spoiler:
Bout the age thing. hasnt Clara known and met all the Doctors in their many incarnations? ie all the old ones? so why is she shocked by Capaldi. I thought she had become the assistant that had split into his timeline or something like that?

The Doctor just isnt weird and surreal enough, I hope he gets some bizarre injected into his performance. Darker isnt necessarily more interesting, its just darker. Anyone can do dark. Weird is harder.

Another thing. We are being told that its the same old Doctor and we should still love him, we are not shown why, we are being told to take it on trust that he is the same trustworthy person that Clara should help and assist, doesnt this take away from the danger and make him cozy? That along with the cheesy Smith telephone conversation, if they want dark they missed a trick.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by David H on Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:16 pm

So many spoilers! Mad

Petty, have you made it to the post office yet?

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:45 pm

Yeah where is he anyway...
Although, I can't read any of these delicious spoilers yet as I still haven't seen Deep Breath.


...I was really looking forward to his reaction to being beheaded in the RTD game as well. Wink

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:04 pm

Apologies- my Whovian audience that came to watch the episode didn't leave until today (well I had to let them stay, they had buckie   drunken  drunken  drunken ) but it did mean, due some folk turning up drunk a day late and all the usual sort of stuff, that I ended up watching it 3 times in as many days. And I am glad that I did because my initial feelings and my final feelings were really quite different.

This is probably going to be a long one!

Spoiler:
So lets start with the biggie, a new Doctor- My first impressions were - “not sure at all about this”, with increasing concern that covered every Doctor scene until the bridge.
Then slowly intrigued and interested by the tramp scene, until I had I new Doctor who had sort of (rather suitably) unveiled himself without me noticing it in the restaurant conversation. After that I was sold on 12.

The second time through I realised I was enjoying him a lot more in those opening sections, as I was no longer sizing him up, laying out my expectations for him and waiting for him to live up to them- the episode had taught me my lesson.
Having seen it already I knew where this Doctor was going and could enjoy the regeneration amnesiac Smithesque portrayal, in which there is a lot of fun and some good lines, such as when he first notices the dinosaur- “Oh, you brought a dinosaur too.'
Its no secret I was an unashamed Matt Smith fanboy and no one does Matt Smith's Doctor half as well as Matt Smith. And that includes Capaldi. Its nowhere near as good as Smith's take on that style of Doctor, but when we got to Capaldi's Doctor from the restaurant scene onwards, no one  could do that  style of Doctor as well as Capaldi does here.

There is a precedent for what Moffat set out to do here, it is the 4th Doctors regen, in reflection.
In that story the older much loved by audiences, hugely popular, 3rd Doctor regenerated into the much younger, manic, wide eyed Tom Baker 4th Doctor.
The story was called Robot. And it was the new 4th Doctor in a classic 3rd Doctor style story, which took place with 3rd Doctor serial home base regulars UNIT headed by the Brigadier.

Moffat has copied that template and suitably enough held it up to a mirror, giving us a story in which our older Doctor has to win over those who loved the former young Doctor via the audience medium of Clara, and setting it in classic 11 Doctor territory- “Dinosaurs! In the Thames!” using the previous Doctors home base in the form of the Paternoster Gang of Madame Vastra, Jenny and Strax. As if to make the point blatant Moffat even gives Madame Vastra the Brigadiers famous line in response to 4's regen, “Well, here we go again.”

Reassuring familiarity because 12, just like 4, is going to be a whole different kettle of Timelord to 11, just as 4 was to 3. The familiar setting, the Victorian streets, the old gang, are all there to soothe the audience as much as the Doctor or Clara. Reminders that no matter how different the Doctor might seem, its still the same man, and still the same show.

This brings me onto what is the real plot of this episode, and its not the robots, its audience acceptance.
Some of you on here have mentioned some tiredness with the need to constantly reference the fact Vastra and Jenny are a couple. And I understand that because every time we see them it gets a mentioned so it seems to wear a bit thing.
But in this case I think it was justified for both  character reasons and meta reasons (there was a lot of those in this).
In character terms Jenny's love for Madame Vastra is the ideal, it's where Clara needs to be but isn't yet, beautifully exemplified in their exchange-

Clara- If Vastra changed, if she was different, if she was not the person, you liked?

Jenny- I don't like her M'am, I love her. And as to different, well, she is a lizard.

Jenny is Clara's mirror, showing her the sort of sight that is real, the sort that doesn't use their sight to judge but to see.
Mirrors and reflections of the story in the audience are a big theme in this episode.
We have Jenny mirroring Clara, and we have Robot half-face mirroring the Doctor, even the Doctor holding up a reflective plate so that as the robot sees itself, so too the Doctor sees himself- “If you replace the handle, and you replace the brush, and you do that over and over again. Is it still the same brush? Of course its not!”
If you regen and regen and replace the person, is it still the same person? Mirrors everywhere.

As to the meta Moffat is peddling hard here under the waves.
As well as using characters to address issues that might be arising in the minds of its viewers at the new Doctor, Moffat also has a secondary job to do here as head writer of Who- and that's expand and keep the audience.
After the fuss of the 50th and it going into cinemas, and going on world tours. For an awful lot of people this wont be the 12th Doctor, it will be their 1st Doctor.
And they have never seen the Paternoster Gang before, so whilst for long term fans having their relationship restated here seems like overkill on something we all accepted ages ago at the start, it informs all those fresh new viewers on the relationship and says “we are this sort of show, and we are proud of it. If you cant leave your own prejudices at the door on the way in don't let it hit you on the way out. But if you stay around you might be entertained and maybe start thinking at little.”
Its not necessary for long term viewers but I get why its done here in the context of this episode.
But I do hope that if they make another appearance in this run it simply reflected in their regard for each other, not flagged up again.

The BBC and all its money men are very aware they have let Moffat make a gamble here, they fear a risk on an older Doctor not being accepted by a generation who have grown up on young, dashing ones who can flirt with their companions. Doctor Who accounts for almost 50% of all BBC overseas sales. And Moffat is responsible for keeping the cash cow healthy by making the right choices to keep it at the top. And the money men having been sweating this one so hard onto Moffat its ended up on screen.

The question of why his age was so prominent was in large part down to this anxiety, which Moffat had to soothe. So Moffat used it to tell a story about acceptance.

Moffat has teed this theme up for a while towards the end of 11's run.
First with Clara- “The souffle is not the souffle, its the recipe.”
And with the Doctor himself with his final speech about how everyone is a different person at different stages of their life, “but that's all right. So long as you remember all the people you used to be.”

In making Clara  the person who has to find acceptance Moffat does something very sneaky and cheeky indeed in a new Doctor regen episode, he regens the companion without changing her face and makes the episode as much about her regeneration as the Doctors..

And the scene where it happens is the veil conversation with Vastra deliberately trying to get the fight out of her and get to the core of her character. Vastra is speaking for the audience here who like Clara but don't have much to go on up until now.
In 11's run she was chiefly the Impossible Girl (and how cheeky that when that reference did come up it was not in the end used by the Doctor at all, by the end she is no longer his Impossible Girl, she is Clara Oswald) but she did have some character seeds laid that sprouted finally into life here.
She was always a control freak from the start- Dalek Oswin was, she controlled that whole asylum the time there. Victorian Oswald had two secret jobs, her life neatly compartmentalised and ordered. Modern Clara wouldn't rush off with the Doctor like every other companion does, she told him to come back on a specific day the following week- she would go with him, but on her schedule, not his.
And in the truth field of Trenzalore she describes herself as a 'control freak'.
Mofatt takes that planted seed and runs with it so that she easily can stand up to a fierce and acerbic 12 , here we have a woman who likes to be in control of the situation and can match his fierceness with as equal as strong a drive.

In the veil scene we also get again a meta conversation, one to Clara that at the same time is talking directly to its audience-

Clara- Are you judging me?

Vastra- The Doctor regenerated in your presence. The young man disappeared, the veil lifted. He trusted you! Are you judging him?

There were two scenes in particular where Clara's character shone like never before as a real character, but it begins right here in this conversation.
Where we find out she will be, as I had hoped and speculated she might be, remembered in the end better as 12's companion not 11's is the conversation in the restaurant where their rapport, comic timing, and switches to the emotional drama were a joy to watch, and everything from the moment the Doctor seemingly abandons her was pure gold all round, from the performance given by Jenna Coleman to the writing.

Another seed Moffat grew here was that unlike Amy, who was brave in male terms in that she showed her fear by being outwardly aggressive, Clara is not brave that way at all.
Here, as in Cold War before it, she finds herself in a situation where she does not feel brave, she feels and is terrified, she is so scared she is sobbing.
But under it, she is also striving for that control, to take control of the situation and that she does it with brains is the crowning glory on Clara reborn.
The robots position is poor reasoning, if you start off with the threat of death there is nowhere else for you to go,  you've left yourself no other negotiating position but to go backwards. And if you carry it out you lose the information needed, and if you don't you lose your threat.
Its cool, clear thinking, even whilst terrified. And inter-splicing these scenes with flashbacks to her first day at school, loosing control of her classroom and threatening them with something she could not carry out-the day she learnt the lesson that is now saving her life was a great touch.
I loved that her solution came from drawing upon a painful lesson learned, not in adventures in space and time, but in her ordinary little human life.
That is just the perfect summation of the core of Who's ethos.

But back to the man of the moment, the Doctor.
There are three scenes that from watching it in company on more than one occasion I noticed always had the desired effect, but it really shouldn't have because it was an impossible ask, yet it works.
The first is the tamps coat. The Doctor tells Clara he traded his fob watch for it, but the Doctor lies, and he was at times quite aggressive about that coat in the scene up to where it ended.
Now I think the Doctor did give him the watch for it. But I am not 100% certain that the tramp gave up his coat willingly. Moffat and Capaldi have me unsure. I am having to decide how I think the Doctor got the coat.

The second scene is when he abandons Clara seemingly so callously. And then leaves her fearing or her life long enough to get the information he needs form the bad guys. Specifically the moment she reaches out for him. No one in the room I watched it with knew for sure if he was really going to be there for her.

And thirdly the final end of the robot. Did he jump or was he pushed? The look the Doctor gives straight to the audience ask you the question, and when you look into those eyes the answer that occurs is, 'I don't know.'

What the fuck? A room full of Whovians, most of whom have watched on and off all their lives, or have seen every episode, and after all this time they got us wondering again, who is he? How far will he go to protect those 'small people down there', where everything is 'so big and important'?
This is so much better than any number of times yelling out 'Doctor Who?' in the script. This is the way to do it, with the character.

Now with all this uncertainty and mystery about just what actions this Doctor is capable of when he feels the need has arisen, it could have all got too dark. But it doesn't because the Doctor is still so full of joy at small details, so fiercely passionate about the importance of individual life, and boy does he notice small details - Sonic resigned to opening and undoing things for the most part, and brains and noticing things are back for the Doctor.
Moffat began this with 11 at the start of that run before going in another direction instead, “I saw something, what did I see?”- 11th Doctor, 11th Hour &12th Doctor, Deep Breath.
I think noticing things is here as a trait for this one. And I like that.
And all the usual Moffat quick one liners, wry observations and jokes about being Scottish are present. Its just as funny as it always could be from the Doctor, but it feels and sounds fresher, sharper.

You might have noticed an absence of talking about the plot here. And there is good reason for that and that is it's not very important.
Its actually quite good, its nicely done, it makes sense within the scale of something dreamt up by mad robots that harvest organs to repair themselves in order to reach the Promised Land in a airship made form human skin (eat that Hintcliffe era Victroian stories! Talking of which anyone else notice one of the robots looked just like one of the Chinamen from Talons of Weing Chang, also 4th Doctor, a romp set in Victorian London in dark shades, come to think of it 12 directly referenced 4th's scarf too!)
The plot has a great resolution and a Moffat arc twist in the tail but its not the main course and was never meant to be.
I have on other forums read some saying it didn't have as much plot as 11th Hour, but as far as I remember the plot of 11th hour was basically prisoner escapes, giant eyeballs come to get him, Doctor saves the day by outwitting prisoner and handing him over, tells eyeballs to go away. End of plot. 11th Hour wasn't good because of its plot, it was good because it showcased what kind of Doctor 11 would be, introduced the new companions, and set what sort of mood and theme his tenure would have.
It is there to service the characters development, just as this episode is, the intent for the direction of the series and most of all to confront us all with the face of the new Doctor and its crabbit Scottish majesty.

And still stuff I should have mentioned but haven't- it looked great, love the direction by Ben Wheatley, some great shots especially liked how he often gave Capaldi room with full body shots, slower paced camera moments. And I loved how Capaldi was so still at times as the Doctor, in his finale conversation he is so expressive yet barely moves in the frame, staying rooted tot he spot but commanding the screen.
And I loved how the entire sequence with Clara holding her breath was shot.

Talking of the last scenes- the scotch scene. Nowhere else did this episode say I am the same man but not the one you were expecting than seeing 12 pour himself and his opponent a half measure with the words-

“I have an awful feeling I am going to have to kill you. I thought you would appreciate a drink first. I know I would.”

Where the 11th spat wine out because it didn't taste like the gums, 12 pours them both a drink whilst predicting his adversaries death by his hand.

Faces? Where has he seen that face before? In Pompey, on volcano day of course. So why did he pick that man's face? Is Moffat seeding something again, is the stuff about his face more than just getting acceptance but a larger plot element?

And where had he seen those clockwork droids before, why when he was 10 with Rose and Mickey, in Girl in the Fireplace, about 8 years ago for us, but a tricky to remember 1100yearsish for the Doctor since then.

I am sure there is a load more I meant to say but I think this got long enough.
It reflects my final view after three viewings, and I really was not sure first time through, for that reason I do recommend it for a re-watch.
I am very hopeful after this for the series, not only from the performances from everyone, but from the growth in the characters, and from the writing in many ways. Moffat has cut his cloth to suit his casting choice again, and if it keeps working like this we should be in for an interesting ride.

Now I'm going to read all your posts again for stuff I missed and didn't cover! Prepare for crabbit ripostes if necessary!  Handbag


David- um no, Embarassed  please see the small print in my contract which reads "I was drunk, it wasn't therefore my fault," acceptable at all Scottish courts, and I will undertake the task tomorrow with expediency.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:47 pm

Curses, the spoiler tags are basically begging to be clicked!
Where can I watch this Deep Breath anyway? I don't really get any television networks at home...

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:52 pm

You can try the links here for a streaming episode-

http://www.free-tv-video-online.me/internet/doctor_who_%282005%29/season_8.html

When you click to play one a box will probably pop up asking you to sign up to something, just ignore it and shut it down and continue to click play. You may have to enter a captcha thingy word though for some players.
If a stream doesn't work try a different link.

As usual any sites you visit are your choice, I always have ad blocks and stuff on, so Ive no idea if you will get loads of ads popping up or not if you dont.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by azriel on Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:59 pm

Jeez Forest, I dont know how you've kept your nerve ! I would have looked by now ! ages ago in fact ! I have no staying power, I can resist everything except temptation Nod

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:08 pm

Spoiler:


In 11's run she was chiefly the Impossible Girl (and how cheeky that when that reference did come up it was not in the end used by the Doctor at all, by the end she is no longer his Impossible Girl, she is Clara Oswald) but she did have some character seeds laid that sprouted finally into life here
. Petty

I think it wasnt so much cheeky so much as Moffat reacting to criticism that Clara had been an empty plot device as the 'Impossible Girl'. Its pretty universal criticism, everything I have ever read about Clara is that people were disappointed with the way she had been sidelined and used as a plot device in Smiths era. People are aware she wasnt very engaging as a character. Therefore he decided to regenerate them both, its just common sense to give her a beefier role and actual character development.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:29 am

Well good try anyway Petty. I'll try and see if I can find anything better.
That link was black and white and was an unfinished version.
Assuming I was watching something that made it into the final version, why the heck
Spoiler:
are Strax and the rest showing their faces in broad daylight? I mean, cmon, I might be used to their mugs but it doesn't mean they would escape attention as well as all that.

Edit:
Aha! Perfect:
http://streamtuner.me/doctor-who-s8e1-deep-breath/
In 720 too!
cheers

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by bungobaggins on Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:24 am

Oh, boy, new Doctor Who. Now I'll have something to do tonight.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by azriel on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:33 am

There has often been wackiness with Dr Who but I think it came to the forefront with Tennant. It found its legs & ran very nearly unstoppable through to Smith. I am glad Capaldi has edginess, I want that in a Dr, After over 1000 years Id be edgy also, but he's got that quality because he knows a lot, he's seen & experienced a lot & thats what Id like to see in him. Being a bit of a clown is fun & a good thing sometimes but not ALL the time. Ive got an instant feeling that Im gonna really look forward to this Dr, much more so than I did with the others, which I find odd ? Odd how quick Ive made that decision.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by azriel on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:35 am

Do love your theory on Dentists Forest ! Very Happy

"("Quick Clara, hold down this alien bicuspid while I drill out the radioactive cavity deposits with my sonic drill!"
"My goodness Dentist, you are so proficient with that astral calcium pick and so attractive in your Space Scrubs!"
"Nevermind that Clara, nevermind that... Quickly! Back to the TARDIS!" (Timely Anti-cavity and Root-canal Dental Intervention Ship))"

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:54 pm

A few responses to a few comments folks have made.

Training any potential crabbit on Bungo first (you posted first so its your own fault! Twisted Evil )

Spoiler:
'The story didn't seem like a strong enough one as a jumping on point for a new doctor (i.e I don't think it pushed Capaldi enough into territory other doctor wouldn't go)'

I touched on this in my review. Its a strong enough story I feel, its just very much in the background of the episode rather than front and centre. This is often true of regen stories, 11th Hour also being a good example as is 10's first episode in which he spends 3/4 of the run time asleep in bed.
And this one is quite delibretly a mirror to the 3rd/4th Doctor regen format. Which explains all the 4th Doctor references in it, from the Brigadier to scarf's and Chinamen from Talons.

'The Paternaster Gang remain incredily annoying, though Strax is funny in small doses'

I cant say for certain of course, but my strong impression from reading views on this trio from around the web is that those who will tend to tire of them and dislike them are adults, whilst kids simply love them.
For that reason in a story which can be as dark in places as this one you probably need them along for the reassurance and the lighter moments it gives the younger end of the audience. Who is broad church and needs to attend to all its audience.

'Didn't justify 75 minutes-too slow'

My guess is Moffat wrote this as a 65 minute episode, like 11th Hour, longer than usual but not feature length. Then the money men at the BBC got the wheeze of raking in more cash and bunging it in the cinema and Moffat had to add material. In particular the Clara medical exam scene felt like a piece of filler written at the last minute to extend the running time, and whilst it's a fun enough scene there is nothing in it the episode could not have done just as well without.
I like the longer time, I like the slower pace and I like it had time for every character somewhere. No one, as has been the case in the past, was left to just stand in the background like they were a lead character in a PJ Tolkien adaptation.

'Obvious metaphor alert with the veil thing'

The whole episode was full of metaphors and reflections. It was a deliberately meta episode aimed at its audience and asking them to ask questions again- from 'am I judging this new Doctor unfairly' to 'Who is he now?'

'I don't think this episode would be a good jumping on point for new viewers'

I disagree here, I think it was going out of its way to inform new viewers of everything they needed to know. The Paternoster Gang being the most obvious example of this.

'The Clara haters can go eat a bag of sharp rocks, loved her in this, in many ways Jenna Coleman carried this she  was Brilliant.'

Yup she was outstanding in this. Best Clara has been since Rings, and she surpassed it here.

'more interested in telling us the doctor has changed rather than giving him a story to prove it '

I agree with the first part, but I disagree with the second Bungo. I feel he did prove it. He didn't get a big flashy speech with the villain, because that's what 11 would do. And he wasn't interested in grand standing and making sure everyone could see him being the hero, because that was what 10 did.
This Doctor doesn't need to do these things. He is the Doctor again, not a war victim, he knows Gallifrey is out there, although how telling that he doesn't seem to believe he will ever find it-

Robot- I am in search of Paradise.

Doctor- Yeah, well me too, but I'm not going to make it either.

I think his Doctor moment is simply longer and more subtle, spread over scenes not delivered in an adrenalin pump the fist manner.
When the Doctor makes his triumphant return with the words "Hello, hello, rubbish robots from the dawn of time." We have a very different Doctor.
10 or 11 would have been full of profuse apology to Clara for leaving her. 12 says-

"Yeah, sorry. No actually I'm not. You're brilliant on adrenalin."

But the Doctor defining scene for me is the whisky scene. Its a complete contrast to previous NuWho Doctors, only 12 would have gone about confronting the villain in this manner.

'Victorian London Again?'

See my review for my thoughts on why that setting again. But maybe when people watching the 3rd/4th regen episode they were saying, "UNIT again?"

'we don't leap striaght from The End of Time of the Doctor '
.it's implied that the Doctor travles alone for a fair amount before returing to pick up Clara..

When Vastra interviews Clara, Clara tells them what happened-

"we were crashing about everywhere, the Doctor was gone, the Tardis went haywire....and then we sort of got swallowed by a big dinosaur. You probably noticed."

There is no gap, this is right after the events of Time.

"So they are adressing his face in the Fires of Pompei? I'm intrigued"

I think I might finally have caught Moffat putting a clue in plain sight. When the Doctor first gets a good look at Half-face robot man he notes part of the repair tot he clockwork "looks Roman."
Something to chew on given the ending and the references to why he choose the face he has.

'a bit inwardly muted and too spiky for younger viewers'

I think kids might have the opposite effect- its not exactly a scientific poll but the reactions in the "What the kids thought" thread, was that young kids really liked him.
This was also true f the 1st Doctor who was an instant hit with young kids, despite in the first few episodes kidnapping his first human companions and being caught about to smash a cave man's head in with a rock, because the cave man was wounded and slowing them down.

'look how that worked for Colin Baker'

I think the problem there was the Doctor was all dark and the humour there was was not leavened by him showing any real joy and passion. I thought 12 has that in spades to prevent a repeat of the 6th Doctor problem.

"I get the feeling the Valeyard may just be happening some time in the future after all."

Well it was Moffat choose to bring that one up in Name of. You never know- I personally think its a bluff. I think Moffat is screwing with us and how we judge the Doctor- I reckon he gave the tramp the watch, he never for a moment left Clara in any real danger what so ever and had her back start to finish, and he never pushed the robot out. But we are inclined to think he might have done any or all of these things. It a great way of getting us to question the Doctor all over again without compromising what makes him special in the first place.
Its also how his enemies can get to hate him so much Trenzalore happened. This is how they see him, a person of ambiguous morals, whose actions can be either good or bad, depending on how you judge him.

'The Lesbain marriage thing was about as subtle as Petty's Hobbit Parody's.'

Oh, so now my parodies aren't subtle enough for you!!! Extremely Crabbit

'though the Heaven arc seems intriguing.'

I am going to put my thoughts on Missy in extra spoilers, in case I am right.

Spoiler:
What can we tell about her from that one scene? Whatever she is up to, its an impressive set up, so probably very clever. She knows the Doctor and speaks of him on intimate terms. She is up to date on his latest regen, even knowing about his accent change. She is clearly off her rocker. She calls herself Missy.

Reminding you of anyone? Mad? Genius? Knows about regeneration? Missy? Possible short for Mistress?
Moffat might not have gone for a female Doctor, maybe he has gone for a female nemesis.

'This is going to be a Marmite episode, definitely seems liked critics favored it more'

Again not a scientific poll but the most commonly voted score for it on Gallifrey Base is 8. With less than 1% voting it a one or 2.

So its certainly no Rings episode which is the only one on that forums history to have got mainly 1,2 3 or 8,9,10 with almost noone placing in the middle- that was a true marmite episode.

Right then, who is next! Twisted Evil

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Amarië on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:40 pm

Bring it on, Skirt Man!! Wink

About Missy (or maybe not?), Petty:
Spoiler:
It was a bit heavy on the clock reference from start to finish. I jumped when he said he had traded his clock for the cloak. The timelord clock? Lead me to think of the Master.



Last edited by Amarië on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:54 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : never you mind!)

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:14 pm

If got Tin, and Figg and Orwell to get through first Amarie! Mad  Typical Ambassador, always expect a queue is something which by definition has an ambassador at the front of it  Mad

But then again, "Bring ut on, Skirt Man!! " Evil or Very Mad

I'll make an exception for you Twisted Evil
Spoiler:

"Dinosaur + Victorian age = really obvious fan flirting."

As I said in my review, I think was quite deliberate mirroring of a previous regen from classic. Setting the adventure in a story that was atypical of the former Doctor- what could be more 11 than a giant dinosaur in the Thames?
It was therefore in my view there for good reason structuring and narrative reasons, not as fan service.

"The Doc speaking Dinosaur is a copy/paste of the Baby speak ‘joke’."

In which case the Doctor speaking horse is a copy.paste of it too. When it comes to establishing something new about the Doctor, the various things he can understand, it has to be done first , then again and now a third time to establish it as a trait. If everything is accused of being a copy/paste how do you introduce anything new?
And I thought its use, translating the feelings of the dinosaurs at being alone and confused by the world around it was a lovely scene and where I first started to begin to warm to 12.

'It’s even more strange since it is Moff who made Clara a lovesick puppy who DID tell her family that the Doc was her boyfriend. '

For me this was well addressed in two scenes. The most obvious was the scene where he tells her he is not her boyfriend-

Doctor- Clara I'm not your boyfriend.

Clara- I never thought you were.

Doctor- I never said it was your mistake.

And in the conversation between Vastra and Jenny-

Clara- I did not flirt with him.

Vastra- He flirted with you.

Clara- How?

Vastra- He looked young. Who do you think that was for?

Clara- Me?

Vastra- Everyone? I wear a veil for the same reason he wears a face.

Clara- For what reason?

Vastra- The oldest reason there is for anything. To be accepted.

That last bit is a meta conversation. When Nuwho came back they decided, rightly for the time, to dump as much of classic as they could get away with- so they ditched the Gallifrey and the Time Lords and put a Time War off screen to explain it. They made him the last survivor of his race.
And they made him ever more the dashing young hero. So an new audience would accept Doctor Who again.
But it was never quite the real deal because of that. Classic Who had more older than younger Doctors. Moffat has been returning NUWho to classic with a twist since he took over in series 5.
This is where he stops having to do that and thinks the show is confident enough to give us the real deal again.

"The Doctor regenerated in your presence. The young man disappeared. The veil lifted"- Vastra

"It felt out of character for him to bounce about like 10 and 11 would have."

Regens are often like this- the former shadow of the previous version hanging about the new version. Its what I had the hardest time with the first viewing. Its much better a second time through when you know where you are going with 12. I did think it took just a little too long however to get from that confused Doctor to the one at the end.

"I hope they stay away from deep, emotional stuff."

I hope they dont. And I thought this episode had some quite deep emotional stuff to say through the character of the Doctor about how we perceive each other and ourselves, and what we expect of others and ourselves based upon that appearance, and through Clara how small lessons, even painfully learned ones, can be of vital importance to forming who we are, if we only see them as a strength not a weakness and learn and grow from them.

Regards Missy I think you are on to something with all the clocks and the watch, not to mention Moffat likes to tease and put things hidden in plain sight and now we have an intro with cogwheels and clocks.

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