Doctor Who [9]

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:09 am

Well I rate Matt Smith in the actor stakes. And is Doctor, love him or loathe him, is superbly played in my view.
He had lots of tropes and gimmicks, just like 10 but I felt he kept the character ever interesting throughout his tenure, where I wearied a lot of Tennants exclamations and what seemed to me to have just become a routine of movement and noises towards the end not a three dimensional character.
In fact I would go as far as to say that Tenants later episodes of the Doctor (with a few notable exceptions like Water of Mars because the character was exploring new areas) were a caricature of his early episodes as the Doctor.


Agree about 12 though- hope Capaldi is here a good long Tom Bakeresque amount of time.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by malickfan on Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:21 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well I rate Matt Smith in the actor stakes. And is Doctor, love him or loathe him, is superbly played in my view.

I did begin to warm to Smith towards the end of his tenure (in fairness I still haven't watched Season 6) but I guess growing up with RTD rather more simple storylines and 'human' doctor (I think that is why Tennant remains so popular in my family-easy to identity with, though I admit it's kinda boring from a dramatic P.O.V) my 18 year old self found it hard to adjust to the big changes in story and outward ecentricity by the Doctor, now having watched Classic Who I'm more inclined to do a rewatch at some point, Moffat's approach does feel more like a continuation of Classic Who than RTD's tenure, but I still personally find Smith's doctor hard to warm to (although I'd agree it's a impressive 'Old Man in A young Man's Body' performance for an actor only 9 years my senior)

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by malickfan on Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:25 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:W
In fact I would go as far as to say that Tenants later episodes of the Doctor (with a few notable exceptions like Water of Mars because the character was exploring new areas) were a caricature of his early episodes as the Doctor.



I always found it funny Waters of Mars finally showed a darker side to Tennant (and remains one of his best eps) whilst End of Time completely reverts it and shows 10 at his most overwrought, whining and self indulgent worst.

(Well, that's what I remember anyway haven't watched either in years)

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:40 am

No - overwrought, whining and self indulgent worst - sounds pretty spot on to me. Nod

And yes I would recomeend series 6 for Smiths performances alone- but if you must onyl watch some of it then I'd say watch- th eopening two parter so you kknow the set up for the series arc.

The Dotors Wife becuase its brillioant stuff from gaiman, his best out of his two by a mile. The last ten minute sof the Rebel People two parter, as that bit has nothing to do with the rest of the episode but the end is crucial to the stroy arc- then watch Good Man Goes to War- becuase Smith is incredible in it reargdless of what else you might think of what is goin gon.
Then pretend there was a mid-series break and you had to wait 6 months and then watch Lets Kill Hitler- mainly for arc reasons, but again Smith's performance, particularly physically in this one is great.
Then watch The Girl Who Waited- because everyone is great in it, its a perfect three hander. (Although actually you can skip this one regards the arc, its one of the few standalone epiosdes of this series, stand alone in more ways than one though so worth the watch)
Id recommend the God Complex because I really like it- but nothing bar the last ten minutes is actually required to watch- again nothing to do with the main episode story, is important character stuff re the arc.
Then watch Closing Time- its not great, its a sequel to The Lodger with Craig back in it, and depending how much you enjoyed that pairing before will determine how much you enjoy it here. But its overall important in terms of setting up the finale.
Then watch the finale Wedding of River Song- because its bonkers, but I think in a good way though others here may disagree.

And I think thats the only way to see series 6 and skip episodes and still have a chance of grasping the over all story- as its the most arc heavy series since War Games.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:05 pm

series 6 sux
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:10 pm

I think the arc is a love it or loathe it thing, as are some of the arc episodes.

But series 6 also has some of the best stand alone in my view- like the Doctors Wife and the Girl Who Waited and the God Complex. superb episodes which any series of Who would be rightly proud to have.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:42 pm

Less than 2 hours to go! bounce bounce bounce


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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:08 pm

Xmas Who in five minutes!!!! bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:26 pm

I really enjoyed that- everything tied up nicely both in the series and the loose ends from the series. It was xmassy, scary, silly, and its always good to see 12 having a bit of fun!

Favourite line among many good ones-

The Doctor: “There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.”

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:53 pm

it was ok
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:30 am

Well coming from you thats high praise!

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:18 pm

I particularly liked the White Cat Stroking sadism of telling kids on Christmas Day that Santa isn't real. Way to go Moffat! Santa is but a dream....
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:08 pm

Um I think you must have watched a different episode than me Figg- as there was nothing in the one I watched that said he wasn't real- in fact the ending, with the Doctor saying he didn't even know who to thank for him and Clara getting a second chance, and then the camera panning to the final shot of the tangerine rather implies he does exist indeed.

Moffat clearly said beforehand that parents need not worry he wasn't going to say Santa doesn't exist because of course he does- and he stuck to that.
Part of the genius of the episode writing I thought was it managed to keep that a possibility throughout without compromising the story or making it impossible to watch for adults.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by David H on Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:20 pm

Ummm, is there something you're forgetting Petty? Suspect

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:43 pm

Not forgetting no- this way you get all of series 8 as the xmas ep is also the last episode of the series making the 13. Oh and you get all of TH edits too.

Will be on its way very soon now I promise.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by David H on Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:32 pm

cheers :carrot:

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:57 pm

Rewatched the xmas episode with a friend- was even better on a second watch (I think Shona danvcing through the infirmary to Slade is probably one of my favourite scenes ever!)

My nieces also love this one too bits- according to my brother they were scared at all the scary bits and trying to hide behind him and laughing and squealing with delight at all the funny bits.
And they were both over the moon about Clara and of course loved Santa in it with the Doctor.

So definitely a winner here.

What struck me most on a second watch was how its gets spot on what PJ's TH films fail utterly miserably at- which is switching tone without feeling disjointed.
This episode goes from visual gags where Santa uses his 'car keys' to switch off Rudolphs nose to a scene taken literally straight out of Aliens, and it manages to keep both elements in one story without compromising characters, narrative or cohesion.
And whilst its got plenty to delight the little uns it never treats them as anything less than a serious audience to be respected. Its silly its never stupid, its funny but never just crude.

More I think of it less happy I am at the prospect of Pj being let near Who when it seems he cannot direct these sort of tonal shifts in TH.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Amarië on Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:31 am

Just seen the Christmas ep, and that was pretty darn good! (And that retro poster is even better now!)

It also got a bit clearer for me that Danny might be the main reason why I haven't been able to fall in love with this season.
Spoiler:
He has always felt like he isn't really there, he never struck me as being real. He's too perfect, too understanding, too patient, too noble... He only made sense - to me - now that he was a figment of her imagination.

Also, me and the kids stayed a night at my parents' and there was a Christmas episode of "My family" on tv (not BBC), set in the future, where Susan kept mentioning the importance of moisturizing, and winking to the camera. I loled. Each time.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:40 am

Regards Danny I thought a very telling line was when he jokes to Clara to use her imagination, and she replies she always has to with him.
But someone like him, essentially a bit dull, a bit pedestrian, not overly imaginative, steady, reassuring, reliable- I can see why Clara with her life with he Doctor would be attracted to that- but I think had it all worked out she would have been bored with him in the end.

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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:42 pm

love 'My Family' don't know why but I do. Embarassed I can watch hours of the stuff quite happily.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:18 pm

I have been re-watching series 8.

And I am loving the Doctor/Clara dynamic more and more.

The thing which struck me this time, without being distracted by a new Doctor- was that they are two alphas. And a lot of their dynamic comes from this.
They are both in their own ways control freaks- something the volcano scene highlights well. And there is an abrasion to start with which comes from this, they are both being challenged by the other.

A line which reoccurs in important ways through the series is- "Do as you are told."

The things about this line is either of them can, and do, say it to the other.
Its become a matter of ultimate trust in a friend.
When the Doctor tells Clara to do as she is told, she does it- such as in Listen when he orders her back into the TARDIS.
And similarly at the end of that episode when Cara knows the Doctor cannot know where they have just been he does as he is told.
I really like this development between them. They know each other better than they do themselves, and they also accept that. And so they trust the others judgement on matters they might be too close to more than they do their own.

I think the way this development over the course has been shown makes lines that come later much more powerful than they have been in previous NUWho Doctor/Companions.
In Dark Water when Kate says of Clara, "Your assistant?" and he replies, "my friend" there is a real powerful emotional kick to that simple line because thats exactly what we have seen evolve, its been earned over the course of the preceding episodes, its a real friendship of understanding between two people- one that doesn't come full circle until the final xmas episode.

I said in the past one of the reasons I liked Amy was she as the most psychologically complex companion in NuWho. I still think that is true.
But Clara and the Doctor is the most complex relationship we have seen between companion and Doctor ini NuWho.
Its not the simple love story of Rose, and its not the simple unrequited love story of Martha, nor is the also simpler best mates of Donna.
There is more depth here than in any of those relationships and more importantly there is more character development justifying it.




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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:38 pm

And this just because I really like it-


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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:50 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have been re-watching series 8.

And I am loving the Doctor/Clara dynamic more and more.

The thing which struck me this time, without being distracted by a new Doctor- was that they are two alphas. And a lot of their dynamic comes from this.
They are both in their own ways control freaks- something the volcano scene highlights well. And there is an abrasion to start with which comes from this, they are both being challenged by the other.

A line which reoccurs in important ways through the series is- "Do as you are told."

The things about this line is either of them can, and do, say it to the other.
Its become a matter of ultimate trust in a friend.
When the Doctor tells Clara to do as she is told, she does it- such as in Listen when he orders her back into the TARDIS.
And similarly at the end of that episode when Cara knows the Doctor cannot know where they have just been he does as he is told.
I really like this development between them. They know each other better than they do themselves, and they also accept that. And so they trust the others judgement on matters they might be too close to more than they do their own.

I think the way this development over the course has been shown makes lines that come later much more powerful than they have been in previous NUWho Doctor/Companions.
In Dark Water when Kate says of Clara, "Your assistant?" and he replies, "my friend" there is a real powerful emotional kick to that simple line because thats exactly what we have seen evolve, its been earned over the course of the preceding episodes, its a real friendship of understanding between two people- one that doesn't come full circle until the final xmas episode.


Only Clara distrusts the Doctor so much that she decided to leave him. She is incredibly angry with him after kill the Moon where he forces her to make an impossible decision, he puts her in shitty situations all the time and it slowly erodes her faith and trust in him. By the time Danny is killed she has had enough of the Doctor.


I said in the past one of the reasons I liked Amy was she as the most psychologically complex companion in NuWho.

I don't think she is complex at all. Being obtuse and grumpy does not mean there are hidden depths, I find her the most easy to understand in a lot of ways, she has an obsession and that's it.


I still think that is true.
But Clara and the Doctor is the most complex relationship we have seen between companion and Doctor ini NuWho.
Its not the simple love story of Rose, and its not the simple unrequited love story of Martha, nor is the also simpler best mates of Donna.
There is more depth here than in any of those relationships and more importantly there is more character development justifying it.

if there is any depth to Clara and the Doctor its a very recent development and not very well fleshed out. Its certainly an improvement on Clara and Smith, but its not developed at all. She has gone from Impossible Girl to a girl who has learnt that the Doctor manipulates everyone around him and sometimes is callous, I think she got to the stage where she found Danny a far more attractive proposal she was about to leave the Doctor for good as he was pretty toxic, then Danny dies and she quickly gets bored with normality and gets back in the saddle.



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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:19 pm

Only Clara distrusts the Doctor so much that she decided to leave him. She is incredibly angry with him after kill the Moon where he forces her to make an impossible decision, he puts her in shitty situations all the time and it slowly erodes her faith and trust in him. By the time Danny is killed she has had enough of the Doctor.- Figg

I don't agree with your reading of the relationship.

Its not that she distrusts him, she doesn't- as she says at the end of the 1st episode "If the Doctor is still the Doctor he will have my back."

And he does.

The reason she is so angry with him is not that he is lying to her all her the time, its not the trust issue thats the problem. That's not why she reacts to 12's type of lying this way. 11 lied to her all the time too, his Rule 1 was The Doctor Lies. It that 12 leaves her feeling without control.

Its not that he put her in the position of having to make the decision in Kill the Moon, its that he lied and manipulated her into that position when she was unprepared for it- she is a control freak. She has to feel like she knows what is happening, then she can act, that she has the relevant facts, then she can make decisions.
What he did was not to be straight with her then land the big decision on her without her having any control of the situation- thats the lack of respect she feels.

In the angry speech she gives one of the first things she says is -

Clara- Do you know what, it was cheap it was pathetic. No, no, no, it was patronizing. That was you, patting on us on the back and saying 'we'll you're big enough to go to the shop by yourself now. Well, go on, toddle along.'

Doctor- No that was me allowing you to make a choice about your own future. That was me, respecting you.

Clara- Oh my God. Really? Was it? Well respected is not how I feel.....I nearly got it wrong. That was you, my friend, making me scared, making me feel like a bloody idiot.

In Mummy on the Orient Express she tells him directly why she is leaving -

"This. You see this is why I am leaving you. Because you did this. Because you lied. You lied to me again. And now you've made me lie, you've made me your accomplice."

Clara compartmentalizes her life and keeps all the bits separate. She also needs to be in control of them all, and that means having the knowledge she feel she needs to be in control. And with 12 she doesn't have that -she has lost control of that part of her life.

In Deep Breath when she is threatened by the clockwork robot what saves her is remembering losing control through making a mistake- when she lost control of her classroom as a new teacher, and immediately went to her top threat- then had had nowhere else to go but backwards.


But of course by manipulating her this way the Doctor also brings out the best of her- she gets all the information from the clockwork robot, by lying to the girl on the train she ultimately saves everyone, she made the right decision in Kill the Moon- as the Doctor says in Deep Breath about abandoning her- "Sorry. Actually no, I'm not sorry. You are brilliant on adrenalin."

The thing that breaks Clara and snaps their relationship is not the lying its the lack of control.
But it brings out the best in her and it slowly starts to give her insight into the Doctor from direct experience.
She begins to understand him in a way she never did with 11- to see beneath the young face, beneath the veil as Vastra demonstrated right at the start- its all about acceptance, of each other for who and what they are, good and bad.

As there conversation at the end of Mummy shows-

Clara- So you were only pretending to be heartless?

Doctor- Would you like to think that about me? Would that it make it easier? I didn't know if I could save her. I couldn't save Qual, I couldn't save Moorehouse, there was a good chance that she would die too. At which point I would just have moved on to the next, and the next, until I beat it. Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones, but you still have to choose.

This is the Doctor confessing an element of his control freakery - his Promise to himself as the Doctor includes- 'never give in, never give up'.
He has to win, he will do whatever it takes to win, suffer whatever pain, sacrifice blood even, but in the end he has to win.

The whole thing of course comes together in Flatline where Clara finds herself in the shoes of the Doctor and lying like he does, and for the same reasons-

Doctor- So what's next Doctor Clara?

Clara- Lie to them.

Doctor- What?

Clara- Lie to them. Give them hope. Tell them they're all going to be fine. Isn't that what you'd do?

Doctor- In a manner of speaking. It's true that people with hope tend to run faster, whereas people who think they are doomed..

Clara- Dawdle. End up dead.

Doctor- So that's what I sound like?

And in the showdown at the start of Deep Breath at the volcano-

Clara- I know what you are doing. You are trying to take control.

Doctor- I am in control. Throw away the key! Do as you are told!

As the Doctor says he wanted to see how far she would go in her need to be in control. And its as far as he would go to win.

That's why Missy paired them up in the first place.

Doctor- Why?

Missy- Because she is perfect for you. The control freak and the man who should never be controlled. You'd go to hell if she asked, and she would.

And the whole issue becomes resolved through the loss of Danny and then the stuff in xmas episode, particularly the final bit where they get a second chance.

So for me their whole conflict is not about him lying to her and putting her in bad situation where she has to make shitty decisions. Its about her losing control, and the Doctor having to give up some of his in order to allow Clara to express her true potential and understand the personal price he pays for it, and so understand him better.

If 11 was as River described him, an ancient god who insists on the face of a 10 year old, then 12 is a glimpse under the masks of both 10 year old and god.
In many ways its the most honest Doctor we have had, which is ironic given all the lying.



'Being obtuse and grumpy does not mean there are hidden depths, I find her the most easy to understand in a lot of ways, she has an obsession and that's it.'- Figg

If I start on the Amy debate this post will be unforgivably long (and potentially explode at some point bom ) - you know my thoughts anyway!

'if there is any depth to Clara and the Doctor its a very recent development and not very well fleshed out.'

I don't get the accusation about not fleshed out- the entire relationship dynamic of the past series rests on Cara's personality, and in particular her need to feel like she is in control of her life.
That was established in her very first appearance in Asylum, further established in her compartmentalized double life in Snowmen, a mirror of the later compartmentalized double life between Doctor and Danny.
She self confessed to being a control freak in the Truth field on Trenzalore. All in her tie with 11.

I don't think the accusation that its a recent development holds out beyond its recent in that its been the theme since 12 because that was when the relationship dynamic changed and put the focus on that aspect of her personality.

"she found Danny a far more attractive proposal she was about to leave the Doctor for good as he was pretty toxic"

As I say above I believe she was leaving because she has lost control of that part of her life. She did not want to leave it, but if she could not have control over it she would sacrifice it.
Danny was more attractive because she felt she had control over that area of her life.
When she lost control over that too with his death she finally snapped and confronted the Doctor and tried to force him to give her back that control.

In the xmas episode scene with her and Danny, he tells her she can grieve for him five minutes every day, but the rest of the time she should get on with it and live her life.
And its a dream construct of her own mind, she is telling herself the solution, she keeps control by doing what she does with her life, compartmentalizes it.
And with the control issues between her and the Doctor resolved as well- she understands him so much better now. When he acts as he does instead of being thrown by it, or hurt by it, she knows why he acts that way, what he is really doing, and she has her sense of being in control again. Comfortable with him.
I think its been a great character arc over the piece and sets it up nicely for next series.




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Pettytyrant101
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Re: Doctor Who [9]

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:55 pm

I think you believe Clara is a control freak because Moffat tells you she is. Theres no evidence to suggest she is any more a control freak than any other assistant or anyone on the entire show. She has never displayed controlfreakery. This is something that the writers have pushed as being an issue without any evidence to back it up, its just random.
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