Doctor Who [10]

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Amarië on Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:50 pm

"12/River 'sex storm' "

Suspect Perhaps RTD would have made it at least plausible. Now I imagine River making lewd hints and wiggle her sonic around while 12 wonders if she is a male or not. Rolling Eyes And Clara freaking out about River being around and about 12 not telling her he is married, and Petty will overexerts himself trying to explain how Clara's jealousy is perfectly logical in every context and Moffaty-way, while Rose's was just bitchy.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:53 pm

He never managed to make 10 and Rose plausible, just creepy.

And Clara has already met River in Night of the Doctor. She wasn't jealous at all just curious. She is not Rose.

And she knows 12 is married, plus he wears his wedding ring.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Amarië on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:12 pm

See? You're already doing it.

I think an episode where the Doc refers to River as his ex and Clara is still not vortexed would be a bit different than our current Dr Who junkie boyfriend dumping Clara-clone facing a 12/River sex storm.

I am certain this is the plot of a fanfic somewhere. Laughing

Also Rose is a person, not a stepford wife.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:22 pm

I think an episode where the Doc refers to River as his ex and Clara is still not vortexed would be a bit different than our current Dr Who junkie boyfriend dumping Clara-clone facing a 12/River sex storm.- Amarie

I have no idea what this sentence means!

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Bluebottle on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:29 pm

Laughing I'm not so sure I'd welcome River back with any sort of joy or excitment. Just as I'm not sure the show needs another bad ass sassy female character who feels entitled to the Doctors affection. It's the last part Ihave a problem with with RIver and Rose. I don't really mind the rest, although it's an overused trope.

At least the Doctors relationship with Clara is a bit more complicated. Shrugging

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:07 am

River and a shitstorm. no thanks.
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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:42 pm

Well be glad RTD is not still in charge then or by the sounds of it you'd be getting one!

Personally I want to see River again- one it fits better with her earlier claims in Library and in the Angels two parter that she needs a spotters guide for all his faces- not if she only ever met 10 and 11 she doesn't.
And secondly I would like to see her character interacting with the 12th Doctor.
Its clear 12 takes the fact he married her seriously from him wearing his wedding ring all the time still.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Amarië on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:03 pm

"she needs a spotters guide for all his faces- not if she only ever met 10 and 11 she doesn't."

Yes that has bugged me too. It might be interesting to see how they interact as 12 and River. Hopefully they are given good stuff to work with.

Oh I suddenly got this hope that they will leave Clara and go off on adventures on their own... It would almost be the Doctor and DoctorDonna come true. Almost.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:38 pm

what will River do if she cant flirt and try to hump the Doctor?
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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Amarië on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:41 pm

Shoot and caress her gun obviously. Nod

Maybe her tale of how she came to be will make Clara see sense and leave.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:56 pm

Given 12's stance on soldiers it would be interesting to see how he feels about Rivers gunplay.

There is a reference by 12 to River in the Caretaker but its (deliberately) unclear about if it was an incident when he was 12, or if he is recalling an unseen adventure with River as 11-

CLARA: You can't do this. You cannot pass yourself off as a real person among actual people.
DOCTOR: I lived among otters once for a month. Well, I sulked. River and I, we had this big fight
CLARA: Human beings are not otters!
DOCTOR: Exactly. It'll be even easier.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Amarië wrote:Shoot and caress her gun obviously. Nod

Maybe her tale of how she came to be will make Clara see sense and leave.

I don't think Clara is capable of seeing sense, she seems to be a masochist.
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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:15 pm

I don't see what it is about Clara you dislike so much or why you think she is a masochist.
She was very much her own person last series, including making all the fuck ups along the way, as normal people do.
Season 8 seemed to me one of the most companion focused they have made.
You complain about Moffat when he doesn't go into characters and their lives, and you complain just as much when he does.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Amarië on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:36 pm

But she is not her own person. She is born to save the Doctor, she can't choose anything that takes her away from him. It's very disturbing and very sad. Hopefully it will be solved or addressed or something soon... Wasn't the interest in the mystery of Clara a rather big plot piece?

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:54 pm

But she is not her own person. She is born to save the Doctor, she can't choose anything that takes her away from him.- Amarie

I don't see how that holds true.
If we take Clara's life -

she was born a perfectly normal person, she lost her mother when she was young, she left education, went into teacher training, qualified as a teacher, at some unknown point temporarily left teaching when after moving to a new area the family she was staying with lost their mother, she then stayed helping to look after the children as a nanny/housekeeper.
She met the Doctor.
She enters the Doctors time stream, copies of her are strewn throughout the Doctors timeline with the driving need to save him from the GI destroying key moments in the Doctors life.
Original Clara is rescued from the time stream by the Doctor.
She continues on with the Doctor who then regens into 12.
She returns to teaching full time.

Its a closed circle, like a time bubble in her time line, and its unclear she even remembers inside the time stream (in the 50th she says of War and 10 that she remembers them 'sort of') let alone retaining memories of all the copies lives splintered through time and space.
But for the original she went into the time line she came out- that Clara, the one we see and have been watching since Bells of St John, is a perfectly normal person.
She wasn't born to save him, its what happened though she did save him, but she is still the same person she was before it. It has no further obligations on her to be anything.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Amarië on Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:29 pm

I don't think nanny Clara and teacher Clara is the same.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:41 pm

Well she is different in that she has been through a lot, and got a lot more experience, especially with 12. But its the same Clara, current Clara is modern Clara, born normal, saved the Doctor by entering his time stream, was saved from the stream, and continues on travelling with him.

Victorian nanny Clara are not the same, Victorian Clara is one of the copies strewn through time.
But Clara that was looking after the kids after their bereavement is the same Clara that's with 12. And she is under no obligation do anything for him, and demonstrates so in the course of the series.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:17 am

she is a masochist because she isn't getting anything positive out of the relationship. She has split herself into bits for him, then cant let go when she has the chance of happiness with Danny. She doesn't have any strength of character, she flim flams about one minute leaving the next minute saying she is back just on a whim. Its like she is a drug addict going cold turkey. Its not healthy. Its the least healthy relationship since Amy Pond got screwed over by him. I see a pattern emerging.
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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Bluebottle on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:13 am

I don't know, to me RTD's comment tell us everything we need to know about why River shouldn't return..

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:50 am

she is a masochist because she isn't getting anything positive out of the relationship.- Figg

DANNY: Why do you do it? Why do you fly off in the box with him? The truth. Please, just this once.
CLARA: Because it's amazing. Because I see wonders.

She seems to think she gets something positive out of it.

Not only that she is portrayed as having a positive effect on 12- she acts as his teacher too. This is made clear throughout the series, Into the Dalek for example its Clara who realises what the 'lesson' is about the Dalek and makes the Doctor see it. There are several references to her acting this way and to her being his teacher and what the positive effect it has on 12 throughout the series is.

'She has split herself into bits for him, then cant let go when she has the chance of happiness with Danny.'

You are conflating two separate events as if they are the same or related. Her splitting of herself was a blip in her life from her point of view she cant even seem to fully remember, it had nothing to do with her relationship with Danny which came later in her life.


'She doesn't have any strength of character, she flim flams about one minute leaving the next minute saying she is back just on a whim.'

Once, she decided to leave and returned once, once is not flim flamming, and under the circumstances it was coming a long time. It would have been weirder and less natural if she had no reaction to how 12 acts.

'Its like she is a drug addict going cold turkey. Its not healthy. Its the least healthy relationship since Amy Pond got screwed over by him. I see a pattern emerging.'

She is not the first companion to stay about after its not safe because they cant leave- Rose being a classic example, even getting trapped in another dimension with a human version of the Doctor doesn't cure her addiction to the point she is destroying universes just to get back to him. Now thats unhealthy.

Plus Clara is very much her own person- when the Doctor tells her he should pay her, and then give her a rise she replies- "You're not my boss. You're one of my hobbies."
And in Listen she not only controls the entire situation she tells the Doctor what to do and he listens to her and obeys-

CLARA: Don't look where we are. Take off, and promise me you will never look where we've been.
DOCTOR: Why?
CLARA: Just take off. Don't ask questions.
DOCTOR: I don't take orders, Clara.
CLARA: Do as you're told.

In Flatline she very much not only takes on the challenges of acting like the Doctor and understanding why he does some of what he does, she also makes all her own calls, at no point does she rely on anyone else to help her. She shows strength of character, determination and the ability to get the job done even when the shit hits the fan.
Unlike previous companions, such as Rose, she doesn't even fly off with the Doctor, she makes him bring her back to right after she left every time, so she can stay in control of her day to day life (or try to at least). She doesn't just disappear from everyones life for months or years on end, leaving her family to think she has been abducted or murdered, or leaving her boyfriend to take the rap for her disappearance.

I don't see what it is you think Clara is 'unhealthy' yet you don't think Rose is. Clara is much more in charge of her choices.

The only 'pattern' I can see here is you trying to squeeze whatever Moffat writes into your own preconceived pattern that he hates women and makes them ' unhealthy'. Regardless of the actual evidence in the episodes.
But then thats not so much a pattern as it is your agenda.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:13 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:she is a masochist because she isn't getting anything positive out of the relationship.- Figg

DANNY: Why do you do it? Why do you fly off in the box with him? The truth. Please, just this once.
CLARA: Because it's amazing. Because I see wonders.

She seems to think she gets something positive out of it.

'because I see wonders' is quite a egotistical answer. Donna would probably say, 'I meet wonderful people and save the universe' Martha would probably say 'I get to help wonderful creatures and save the universe' Rose would say 'I get to save the universe and be with the Doctor who is my soul mate'. Clara hasn't become a better person, she has become a more egotisical lying manipulative person. Most of all a liar, she lies to Danny, she lies to the Doctor, she is an emotional blackmailer who would sacrifice herself on a whim and then demand payment. She is another companion who is damaged by being with him.

Not only that she is portrayed as having a positive effect on 12- she acts as his teacher too. This is made clear throughout the series, Into the Dalek for example its Clara who realises what the 'lesson' is about the Dalek and makes the Doctor see it. There are several references to her acting this way and to her being his teacher and what the positive effect it has on 12 throughout the series is.

no she doesn't teach him anything, she has zero effect on him, and quite often he cant even be polite to her and treats her with disdain.

'She has split herself into bits for him, then cant let go when she has the chance of happiness with Danny.'

You are conflating two separate events as if they are the same or related. Her splitting of herself was a blip in her life from her point of view she cant even seem to fully remember, it had nothing to do with her relationship with Danny which came later in her life.

no I am not. As she quite clearly demands payback for what she has done when Danny dies. She demands that the Doctor brings Danny back to life even going so far as to throw the TARDIS keys away in a tantrum because in the past she gave up her timeline thingie for him. Its connected. She feels the Doctor owes her.


'She doesn't have any strength of character, she flim flams about one minute leaving the next minute saying she is back just on a whim.'

Once, she decided to leave and returned once, once is not flim flamming, and under the circumstances it was coming a long time. It would have been weirder and less natural if she had no reaction to how 12 acts.

'Its like she is a drug addict going cold turkey. Its not healthy. Its the least healthy relationship since Amy Pond got screwed over by him. I see a pattern emerging.'

She is not the first companion to stay about after its not safe because they cant leave- Rose being a classic example, even getting trapped in another dimension with a human version of the Doctor doesn't cure her addiction to the point she is destroying universes just to get back to him. Now thats unhealthy.

but Rose and the Doctor have a healthy adult relationship and that's the difference.

Plus Clara is very much her own person- when the Doctor tells her he should pay her, and then give her a rise she replies- "You're not my boss. You're one of my hobbies."

that's just a flippant soundbite its meant to be 'funny' but isnt

And in Listen she not only controls the entire situation she tells the Doctor what to do and he listens to her and obeys-

CLARA: Don't look where we are. Take off, and promise me you will never look where we've been.
DOCTOR: Why?
CLARA: Just take off. Don't ask questions.
DOCTOR: I don't take orders, Clara.
CLARA: Do as you're told.

this is more about power games than respect. Each are trying to express their dominance, this isn't a relationship based on trust. She is ordering him to do something and because he doesn't want to submit to her orders and doesn't trust her judgement, he tells her that he is in control, then she gets angry and tries to force him by saying 'do as you are told', like an adult talking to a kid. its warped and its certainly not the exchange of two friends who like and trust one another.

In Flatline she very much not only takes on the challenges of acting like the Doctor and understanding why he does some of what he does, she also makes all her own calls, at no point does she rely on anyone else to help her. She shows strength of character, determination and the ability to get the job done even when the shit hits the fan.

only because the Doctor 'allows' her to take control because he is incapacitated in a little TARDIS.

Unlike previous companions, such as Rose, she doesn't even fly off with the Doctor, she makes him bring her back to right after she left every time, so she can stay in control of her day to day life (or try to at least). She doesn't just disappear from everyones life for months or years on end, leaving her family to think she has been abducted or murdered, or leaving her boyfriend to take the rap for her disappearance.

we don't really know anything about Claras family apart from it being awkward and shallow. We don't know anything about the relationship she has with them or what their characters are like so its a waste of time showing them onscreen for 2 minutes. her family don't seem to care where she has been so its a waste of time. they don't figure in the stories apart from one Christmas dinner where she is itching to escape from them which shows how shallow she is. Unlike Rose who loved her parents deeply, and showed concern for them in her own way, as any teenage girl would, she wanted her adventures and felt guilty about leaving, even though she didn't know when she came back time had moved differently and she had been away for years. Clara lied to Danny, Rose was honest with Mickey, she was going on an adventure and that was it.

I don't see what it is you think Clara is 'unhealthy' yet you don't think Rose is. Clara is much more in charge of her choices.

The only 'pattern' I can see here is you trying to squeeze whatever Moffat writes into your own preconceived pattern that he hates women and makes them ' unhealthy'. Regardless of the actual evidence in the episodes.
But then thats not so much a pattern as it is your agenda.

its an objective opinion based on the evidence. when he stops writing dodgy female characters that will change.
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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:17 pm

'because I see wonders' is quite a egotistical answer. - Figg

Its also a very honest answer.
Donna wouldn't say anything because RTD stripped her all she had become and left her a pudding brain.
Martha would say 'He completely ignored me and constantly compared me to Rose'
And Rose would say 'I don't give a shit about anyone else so long as I get to be with my Doctor forever.'

'Most of all a liar, she lies to Danny, she lies to the Doctor, she is an emotional blackmailer who would sacrifice herself on a whim and then demand payment.'

Lying is a theme of the series and it has repercussions, and its only after they are given a second chance that they avoid their own lies, even made with good intentions, from separating them until it is too late.
Lies are presented as neither good nor bad, but only the use to which they are put.
Clara regrets lying to Danny but lying in Flatline saves lives.
Like everything else it reflects the series big question of what is goodness? And is the Doctor it?
"Lying is an essential survival skill. And a terrible habit'- the Doctor.
Good and bad. Its not the lie that's the problem, its which, to whom and for what purpose.

'She is another companion who is damaged by being with him.'

Rose distraught at her loss of him, Trapped in another dimension.
Martha- left of her own free will but then for some reason joined Torchwood, we know what happened to them so no happy ending there!
Donna- left a pudding brain.

Clara is ahead of the game so far.

'no she doesn't teach him anything, she has zero effect on him'

Em, what about-

CLARA: Are we going to die in here? I mean, there's a little bit of you that's pleased. The Daleks are evil after all. Everything makes sense. The Doctor is right.
DOCTOR: Daleks are evil. Irreversibly so. That's what we just learned.
CLARA: No, Doctor, that is not what we just learned.

DOCTOR: But for a moment, it wasn't. The radiation allowed it to expand its consciousness, to consider things beyond its natural terms of reference. It became good. That means a good Dalek is possible. That's what we learned today. Am I right, teach?
CLARA: Top of the class.

CLARA: You asked me if you're a good man and the answer is, I don't know. But I think you try to be and I think that's probably the point.
DOCTOR: I think you're probably an amazing teacher.
CLARA: I think I'd better be.

To give just one example from the many throughout the series of where Clara is teacher to the Doctor.

'but Rose and the Doctor have a healthy adult relationship'

There is nothing healthy about a 900 odd year old man falling in love with a 20 year old human. Her obsession of him is not healthy, her jealousy of anyone else who gets close to him is not healthy, her need to get back to him even after its over is not healthy.

'that's just a flippant soundbite its meant to be 'funny' but isnt'

Funny yes, flippant no. Its part of the many things she does and says which reinforces her new relationship with the Doctor and where she sees herself in it.

'this is more about power games than respect. Each are trying to express their dominance, this isn't a relationship based on trust.'

Its quite th eoppiste its all about trust. Another main them eof the series.
Clara lost her trust inthe Doctor when he became 12-

VASTRA: The Doctor regenerated in your presence. The young man disappeared, the veil lifted. He trusted you. Are you judging him?

She gave him her trust in the end, but he has not repaid that in her eyes, something which comes to the boil in Kill in the Moon. Clara is making a dominant claim, she is telling him to trust her as she trusts him- and he acknowledges it and accepts her judgement.
I think seeing a companion take control of the Doctor to help him see how unequally he often treats others is a good thing to show.
And the whole theme comes to a head in the volcano scene.

'only because the Doctor 'allows' her to take control because he is incapacitated in a little TARDIS'

He is not incapacitated at the start when she goes off to investigate alone and finds the links to what is going on by herself. So no its not for that reason clearly.

'we don't really know anything about Claras family apart from it being awkward and shallow. We don't know anything about the relationship she has with them or what their characters are like so its a waste of time showing them onscreen for 2 minutes.'

We saw her parents courtship. We saw glimpses of Clara growing up. We know her father remarried and that Clara doesn't get on very well with her step-mother. We know she is closest to her Gran, and we know how her Gran met her granddad.
I know enough for my satisfaction, I don't think the companions families should have too large a role in the story.

'Unlike Rose who loved her parents deeply, and showed concern for them in her own way'

What by leaving them in the lurch, several times, not telling them what is going on, putting them in danger? I dont see much concern there, and even when there seems to be, like when she breaks down in tears in her mums arms, its all about her.


'Clara lied to Danny, Rose was honest with Mickey'

Rose was not honest to Mickey- when did she tell him about her outrageous flirting with Jack or telling him she was single? When did she tell Mickey about her 'boyfriend' she picked up in the Dalek episode and took with her in the TARDIS?
Clara's lies to Danny had repercussions for both of them and for their relationship.
Roses lies to Mickey well just selfish and cruel.

'when he stops writing dodgy female characters that will change.'

Maybe like Vastra's veil, when you stop seeing them.

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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm

Short but fun vid from Winterthief again-


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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:22 pm

Ingrid Oliver (Osgood) is joining the Big Finish audio family. She will be in the UNIT spin off Extinction along with Jenna Redgrave as Kate Stewart.

'Producer David Richardson said:
We’re so happy to have Kate and Osgood joining us at Big Finish. This team has been so captivating to watch on TV, and we’re looking forward to throwing some deadly challenges in their paths in these kinetic new episodes.
Also confirmed for the series is Warren Brown (Luther, By Any Means, Good Cop) who plays new character Sam Bishop, "an international trouble-shooter for UNIT who is sent to the world’s most dangerous hotspots".
We’ve worked with Warren several times before, and even though he’s one of the busiest leading men around, he’s said he’ll be there for Big Finish. So we’ve created a principle role in UNIT especially for him, and he’ll be an essential member of the global team.
The ensemble is also joined Ramon Tikaram (Stella, Fortitude, Happy Valley) as Colonel Shindi.
Ramon also is busy on so many great things, but we’ve tempted him to the ranks of UNIT! He’s a lovely man to have around, and an extraordinary actor.
Completing the team is James Joyce (Downton Abbey, The Musketeers, Holby City) who plays the role of "loose canon UNIT officer" Josh Carter. Joyce has appeared in many Big Finish productions including Charlotte Pollard.
James has done so much brilliant audio work for us, he’s earned his place in UNIT!
In UNIT: Extinction, Kate and her team confront an alien invasion by the Nestene Consciousness and its army of plastic Autons. The box set is released in November 2015 and is available for pre-order; three further UNIT releases will then follow at six monthly intervals.'- Gallifrey Base



Things are looking ever better for previous NUWho Doctors to be given license to appear in BF. Nod


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Re: Doctor Who [10]

Post by malickfan on Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:45 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Ingrid Oliver (Osgood) is joining the Big Finish audio family. She will be in the UNIT spin off Extinction along with Jenna Redgrave as Kate Stewart....
Things are looking ever better for previous NUWho Doctors to be given license to appear in BF.  Nod


Personally I can't see the fascination people seem to have with Osgood (Ingrid Oliver sells the character pretty well, but it's not one I find very interesting), beyond being a disposable assistant for Kate she just seems like a 'quirky' caricature/cypher of certain elements of the fanbase, I'll give BF the benefit of the doubt as they seem to have a history of developing underwritten characters (going just off the TV film I'd never have thought McGann would become 'my' Doctor), but It's not something I'm very tempted to buy. Kinda dissapointed Benton or Yates aren't returning (I know the later at least has appeared in quite a few BF audios) but it does seem to be aimed at New Whovians (lets hope it pays off...) it would be nice to see Malcolm (Lee Evans) from The Waters Of Mars return (he was mentioned in DOTD) but Evans is both retired, and probably quite expensive...

I've seen Warren Brown in a few things though, he seems like a decent character actor.

As for New Who doctors I'd be very pleased if they got the go ahead to do proper New Who...I'm sure Tennant would do it for free (he's worked with them several times before, I'd certainly buy them if they signed up Catherine Tate as well), Smith would probably do it in a few years depending on his his move to Hollywood turns out (there's over 900 years of off screen adventures for him to play around with), but they probably couldn't afford John Hurt (as interesting an idea as the War Doctor is, I'm not convinced it's a good idea to see too much of the timewar...and given the speed at which McGann seems to be available, it could be a decade or two before they even lead into the Timewar, sadly Hurt isn't getting any younger, though I suppose he could turn out like Tom Baker and see it as a fun way to spend his retirement) unfortunately I doubt Eccleston would be interested (which is a shame, he's actually my least favourite of the new who doctors, but since Moffat crowbarred in a off screen century between DOTD and Rose there could be some very interesting things to do with Nine, Eccleston has very powerful voice...) and I'm not overly fond of Rose...

Big Finish is quite a small company though, so I'm not entirely convinced they could handle the workload or massive increase in sales New Who would bring, and to be honest I quite like they are giving their attention to the Classic Doctors first and foremost, I'd hate for doctors 4-8 to suffer at the expense of further widening the exposure of Smith and Tennant.

That said I do recall reading that the Doctor who license no longer divides things into 'Classic' and 'New' who, so providing BF can afford to upgrade its license it's probably a matter of when not if. I did read recently Capaldi is recording some Who related audio, but it's probably one the 12th Doctor Audiobooks listed on Amazon.

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