2015 General Election

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:47 pm

we are on the big boys table though, as we are the 6th largest economy. I wouldn't underestimate the UKs influence, no matter what some people say.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:50 pm

At what cost though Figg- we expend a fortune in keeping that position- its not just about our economy, its what we spend the money on- instead of infrastructure, the people, and conventional defence we spend it on trident, embassies all over the world, spy networks ect ect

One of the reasons I was for an independent Scotland was to get out of all that- and just be another small, equal northern European country largely minding its own business and not tying to rule the world.
I still wish for that and I think, if we have to be in the Union, the UK should stop trying to play at a level it cant afford to compete at.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:54 pm

but several perfect opportunities have been missed since then, like the breakup of the Soviet Union for example.
I wish we'd take another look at that model..- David

Agreed entirely- when the opportunities were there to reduce even further stockpiles it was not taken for some reason.

But we shouldn't be surprised at Russian response of late- we did that, we have been goading them for years now.
Can you imagine Americas reaction if Russia had got all the countries bordering America aligned with them and put missile defecne systems, radar stations ect in them?
Would America sit back and think that was fine?

I very much doubt it, yet we expected no reaction from Russia as we hoovered up ex-Soviet states all along their border, started bringing them into NATO- a military club with a long history of opposing Russia- and put our bases right next to Russia.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by David H on Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:39 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Would America sit back and think that was fine?

Not a chance!

And by the way, that's exactly the position Iran's been put in, with Pakistan and India having nukes on one side, Israel a stone's throw on the other side, and the Russians and their allies to the North.

They're effectively surrounded.

What would anybody do in their situation? Shrugging

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:24 pm

Petty. the Hobbits thought they were safe in their little hidden country minding their own beeswax. look what happened.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:38 pm

What would anybody do in their situation?- David

Yup when you reverse how appallingly stupidly we have acted it becomes clear.

Imagine all across South America there are revolutions, one by one they turn communist, Russian friendly. Russia welcomes them. some of them talk of officially joining a New Soviet Union, they go into trade deals via Russia and China alone, cutting America out the loop and damaging its currency and costing thousands of jobs.
Russia starts building new radar bases all along Americas southern border.
They impose sanctions on American industry and on its top officials and business people, further damaging the economy.
They begin to construct missile defense systems along the border, and talk begins of joining Russia's military club, which is nuclear armed.
Hawaii goes communist and America loses an important strategic area, so they go in and take it back- the world calls them aggressors.

The only difference in reality is that Russia has been a shit load more tolerant and a shit load more patient than America would have been in responding in its place.


'the Hobbits thought they were safe in their little hidden country minding their own beeswax. look what happened.' - Figg

Im just saying, when as the last time you heard of someone attacking Switzerland? Shrugging

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:32 pm

Well I thought Sturgeon just kicked some Milliband arse about the place in the debate. Nod

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by malickfan on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:12 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well I thought Sturgeon just kicked some Milliband arse about the place in the debate. Nod

I didn't really watch the debate, but as this point is it really that hard? Laughing

I caught about a minute, Farage moaned about Immigration, Sturgeon talked Scotland, Milliband just grimaced and the Green Party leader looked awkward.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:46 pm

This was in response to an audience question about what deals they might do in a coalition- Miliband dogged the question and pulled the politicians answer- that they weren't thinking about it, they were out for majority ect, this was her reply and the subsequent result-


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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:53 pm

Taking on Farage-


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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:19 am

I thought Milliband put her in her place and she got really angry. He wasn't having non of it and jolly well think so too.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Lancebloke on Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:22 am

Petty - why should the US bear the cost of nukes to defend us?

Btw kinda agree re Russia and us provoking. Not sure why we needed to be so aggressive with NATO during the years we were all actually getting on ok!
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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by David H on Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:10 pm

Lancebloke wrote:Not sure why we needed to be so aggressive with NATO during the years we were all actually getting on ok!

Don't know. Lucrative government contracts maybe? Shrugging

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Bluebottle on Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:39 pm

This was pretty good on the subject of the election. (And Daniel Radcliff is actually a pretty great host.)


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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:38 pm

I thought Milliband put her in her place and she got really angry. He wasn't having non of it and jolly well think so too. -Figg

I don't know how you can say that, she completely outmaneuvered him and put him exactly where she wanted him.
She got Miliband to sign the death certificate of Scottish Labour on live TV.

It was great politics just taken as a sport to be observed- either he accept her offer and admit he would have to work with other left of centre parties in a minority government to get things done- and so playing straight into the Tory narrative of the Scottish tail wagging the English dog- or he refuses that out reach from the other parties and lets Cameron back in as PM- so killing off what little is left of the Scottish Labour support.
And his desperate floundering attempt to get out of it by trying to bring up something from 1979, before Nicola bluntly cuts him off with "I was 9 Ed," was pathetic, he realised too late he had walked head long right into her trap. And there was no way out.

Also interesting was the poll result afterwards- it was a snap poll, of just over 1000 people, widely reported in the Press taken by Survation.

The question was simply "Who do you think won?"

The result was 1st Milband 35% 2nd Sturgeon 31% 3rd Farage 27%

But what was not so widely reported was that the poll was not in fact 1 question but 2.

The second question came with a caveat -putting aside any party allegiance- who performed the best?

The result of that poll was 1st Sturgeon 35% 2nd Miliband 29% 3rd Farage 26%

Its perhaps not surprising she did not come out top in the first poll too, as its a UK wide poll and most people cant vote for her or her party, but I did find it interesting that when that factor is taken out she is clearly ahead- maybe next time the SNP should stand in England too! Very Happy


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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:39 pm

Petty - why should the US bear the cost of nukes to defend us?- Lance

To turn that back at you Lance- why should the UK have to spend 100billion pounds paying for nukes when other NATO members do not, and why should we have to host them when other NATO members do not?

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by halfwise on Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:13 pm

"why should we have to host them when other NATO members do not?"

Because the instruction manuals are written in English? scratch

Though by that criterion, we have plenty of Fjordians here spouting gobs of perfect English, maybe we should give all the nukes to them! Idea

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:28 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I thought Milliband put her in her place and she got really angry. He wasn't having non of it and jolly well think so too. -Figg

I don't know how you can say that, she completely outmaneuvered him and put him exactly where she wanted him.
She got Miliband to sign the death certificate of Scottish Labour on live TV.


no she didn't outmaneuvere him, she just laid out her stall and he refused to buy. He hates her more than Cameron. he has reason to, and at the end of the day at least the Tories are English and don't want to break up the UK, so that's why she got rabid with him, Salmonds plan to divide and rule was just thrown out with the dirty bath water. After hearing his absolute refusal to do deals with the SNP I might just vote Labour because that was my main concern. Sturgeon may seem like a reasonable woman but behind her lurks the grinning face of Salmond and all the damage they have done to the Labout party in Scotland. Milliband wont deal with her for that alone and I don't blame him.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:41 pm

Sturgeon is in full control of her party, and her campaign, make no mistake about that.

And she got Miliband good and proper- she put him in a place where either answer hurts him.
If he says yes, he will put aside their differences to work together on areas of policy they can agree on, it unsettles middle-england and folk like yourself, and plays directly into Tory hands and more importantly loses him English votes, or he denies the SNP's offer of help to keep the Tories out and pursue more traditional Labour left of centre ground, fatality wounding the already struggling Labour campaign in Scotland.

She knew he wouldn't accept the first as the cost in England outweighs in vote numbers the cost in Scotland, so he had to sacrifice Scotland, leaving it to the SNP and killing off any chance of a revival that he needs in Scotland.
If Labour don't get those Scottish seats and the polls bear out as they have been, he wont have the numbers to make up a government on his own, he has to work with someone.

And its not just Scottish Labour voters her message appeals to- there are plenty in the Labour party rank and file would very much support a lot of her policies on education, health, and not renewing Trident. And if Ed is PM he will have to keep his parties backing with him and a lot of them are sympathetic to using SNP votes to get such policies pushed to the front.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:47 pm

theres no way he will do any deals with the SNP, he may try the Lib Dems but not the SNP, if he does he would be the biggest lying twat on record.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:53 pm

He has never ruled out being propped up on SNP votes- he has ruled out a coalition- but the SNP had already done that weeks before- and he ruled out a formal arrangement on voting- but he has never ruled out a vote by vote deal.
He cant, he cant gamble on the numbers and knows if he wants some stuff passed like increasing the top rate of tax, or upping the minimum wage, he will need other left of centre parties to vote with him.
That's just how it works with a minority government, its a numbers game- and Sturgeon has been in such a government in Scotland, she knows how it works.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Bluebottle on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:44 pm

halfwise wrote:Though by that criterion, we have plenty of Fjordians here spouting gobs of perfect English, maybe we should give all the nukes to them! Idea

We are a pretty anti nuclear weapon country on the whole. And I don't think nuclear weapons on fjordlandian soil for any extended amount of time would ever wash with the general population. So, I'm affraid we're out. Shrugging

(I wonder if that isn't just the sort of power scots would have liked to have in an independent Scotland.)

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:10 pm

Seems Sturgeons manoeuvring is paying off- SNP have had an amazing further surge, now the polls are showing some high profile casualities -

'SCOTTISH Labour leader Jim Murphy and election campaign chief Douglas ­Alexander are poised to lose their seats as the surge in SNP support intensifies, a poll has found......Mr Murphy is now nine points behind the SNP in his East Renfrewshire seat, having been one ahead two months ago'- Scotsman



This could be the best night since watching Portillo go. Nod

And Sturgeon's offer has piled the pressure on Milliband-

'Mr Miliband repeatedly refused to rule out a post-election coalition with the SNP on the campaign trail yesterday after his TV debate clash with Ms Sturgeon on Thursday.'

'The Prime Minister sought to ramp up fears about higher borrowing and taxes if Ms Sturgeon props up a Labour government.'

'ALEX Salmond has stepped up the pressure on Labour leader Ed Miliband with a fresh warning that he will find it difficult to avoid doing some form of deal with the Scottish nationalists in the event of another hung parliament.
The former SNP leader - who is bidding to return to Westminster - said all parties would have to face up to the “electorate’s judgment” after polling day on May 7.
If the election resulted in a hung parliament with neither of the main parties able to form a majority government, Mr Salmond predicted the “most likely” outcome was an agreement by the SNP to support Labour on a vote-by-vote basis.
“I think that after the election every Westminster politician will have to come and face the reality of the electorate’s judgment,” he told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme. “There is no disrespect or disgrace in any politician coming to terms with the democratically expressed position of the electorate.

Its a bit like watching the qualifiers of the Champions League, where you have one team whose season starts next week and haven't kicked a ball together yet, playing another team who are half way through their season, fully in their stride and in the zone.
The SNP are fresh off the independence debate, the party is a slick well-oiled machine, they didn't have to hit the ground running, they already were running.
And the Westminster parties are being played off the park.

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:14 pm

Wallace and Gromit is doing quite well at the moment, he may pull this election off and then he can tell Salmond to get stuffed. Nod

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Re: 2015 General Election

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:25 pm

Its possible, if he can win a majority in England, thats what it comes down to.

But its win win for the SNP- if he wins but then ignores the SNP MP's, and they will make themselves heard I am sure, then there is no chance of a Labour revival north of the border- and he cant back on Labour wining an English majority every time- the odds are against it. Labour will need those Scottish votes eventually.

And if he gets legislation past on any SNP votes they can claim it as a victory for the SNP.

If Milliband fails to get an English majority, then turns his back on the SNP and lets in a Cameron/UKIP/DUP coalition its the death of Labour in Scotland for at least a generation.

And if Miliband loses and Cameron gets in the SNP have the Tory bogeyman back, rejected utterly by the Scottish electorate, playing right into the hands of the argument Scotland's political voice is irrelevant at Westminster.

None of it does them any harm where it matters for getting independence- with the Scottish electorate.

Love her or loathe her its been a masterclass in politics.
Salmond was good, but here we are seeing the apprentice surpass the master.

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