The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:29 pm

for a Brit the thought of assault weapons on the streets is f-ing bonkers.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:34 pm

The effing National Rifle Association has this country bound and gagged. It's disgusting.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by azriel on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:37 pm

The thought of ANY weapons is frightening ! I think most of us are naïve in thinking it wont happen here & that there is such a control only shoot outs happen on TV. We assume someone has a total grip on it all. Armed coppers at Airports was enough for me, I aint messing about or acting cocky when you see the rozers tooled up pale

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by bungobaggins on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:35 pm



Shapiro address the "18 school shootings so far this year" claim in the video, but here's a source you might trust more.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.a200c430c9f6

I thought this comment from Shapiro's video was pretty insightful:

"Kids in 1897 didn't shoot up classrooms using a Remington level action rifle and a Colt 45 revolver. World War 2 veterans brought back fully automatic "war trophies", but for some reason THEIR kids didn't go shoot up schools. My friends and I had easy access to AK-47's and other "assault rifles" in the 1980's, yet we would never dream of going on a shooting spree because we were SANE and because we knew the difference between RIGHT & WRONG. Modern families don't stay together, they don't eat together and they don't go to church together anymore. Kids are just drugged and ignored, left to stare at their phones for 5 hours a day. Society has failed a generation of children that have no moral compass and (usually) no fathers at home to help mold young men into becoming GOOD men. PARENTS have failed our kids, not the gun laws (which have remained consistent for decades). The easy answer is "ban guns", but the real truth is something we don't want to face because the fact is, we have CREATED these monsters."

The problem might not JUST be guns.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:46 pm

{{Problem is the facts do speak for themselves on gun control- other western countries with gun control have less deaths by mass shooting per head of population than the US does.

America owns 48%  of all the civilian gun ownership on the entire planet- it has the most mass shootings.

It has more guns per capita than any other country- it has more mass shootings.

The US is 5% of the worlds population and makes up 32% of all the mass shootings- it has more mass shootings.

Gun homicide is 25.2 times higher in the US than in other western countries- it has more mass shootings.

The only countries worse than the US are third world or war zones. Thats not good company.

This is not rocket science- giving civilians weapons, up to and including assault weaponry, with not even basic gun control laws in place = more death by gun and mass shootings.

The facts are clear. Bloody hell 19 mass shootings in schools already this year, no amount of 'its the people not the gun' can change the fact that this doesn't happen very often in other civilised countries because we all have gun control laws (and all our youth are on rugs staring at phones too with parents of many genders single, or none- this still doesn't happen anywhere else but the US. Why?- because you let everyone have guns and then dont have any proper laws to control who, for what or why? Its madness. }}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:25 pm

I think he does a good logical analysis, and I appreciate having Marco Rubio's comments in full.  He points out some places where gun laws could be strengthened proving he's not a gun nut.  But there are some points I would take issue with him.

1. Saying it's easy to get guns illegally, so making laws prohibiting ownership of certain guns will accomplish nothing, is almost like saying it's easy for kids to access alcohol so making laws prohibiting public consumption of alcohol will accomplish nothing.  The idea is to have the ability to enforce when the situation arises, so if a policeman sees someone wandering by with an assault rifle they can do something about it.  In some states they can't!  
2. Assault rifles should be banned.  Not easy to conceal, therefore easy to detect and relieve the owners of them.  Isn't this against their rights?  Well, name me one good use people have for carrying around assault weapons in a public area.  Those who already own them would be grandfathered in, but cannot carry them off their property..

Would this prevent what recently happened?  Well, I was mugged and beaten up a few years ago, having laws against that didn't prevent it, but does that mean the laws shouldn't exist?  Will be useful if the guy was ever caught.

Petty - part of your point was covered in the video. Drawing down the number of guns in this country is unfortunately not feasible. and the suckers last forever. Hmm...maybe do something about ammunition?

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:38 pm

{{Its feasible- you just have to break it down to state by state a managable size- the UK was awash with weaponry following Empire and two World Wars- we got rid of them and destroyed them. }}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:13 pm

I agree with Bungo. its not the guns its the person pulling the trigger. we need to know why men are doing these things. how do they arrive at such a point.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:35 pm

{{ If the people dont have the guns they cant pull the trigger.
As to why- its just a numbers game- in a big country with a large population a significant percentage will have violent mental health problems just from the lottery of life and genetics, its a small percentage of the population, and a smaller percentage of mentally ill folk- but if your population is big enough even a small percentage is a lot of people.
And if you have such poor laws on who can buy and own guns that such people dont even get screened in any fashion worth a damn then give them access to weapons capable of killing lots of people quickly, well its hardly surprising you get this tragic result. }}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Bluebottle on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:12 am

Obviously, you need both to deal with personal issues of mental health, societal issues with a culture of brutality, and the number of guns available and the easy accessibility to all weapons, but in particular weapons that have no practical purpose. All these issues feed eac-other and lead to the situations we have seen.

But Petty is obviously right, you cannot shoot anyone without a gun.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:17 pm

if it wasn't a gun it would be knives. there is a problem with men and violence. making mental health the focus ignores the main problem because women who are mentally ill don't start shooting up children in schools. its something about society allowing young men to feel like its a way out or a way to settle scores or gain dominance. its a lack of care by parents and society in general, as if they are allowing these feral kids to let rip. there were warnings but they were ignored.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:24 pm

if it wasn't a gun it would be knives- Figg

{{Yeah but you dont get many knife massacres or knife sprees- hard to kill 20 people and wound dozens more in the space of three minutes with a knife, plus you have a chance to take down a knife wielding maniac, they have to get close enough to stick you so they have to get in range for you to hit them too. These guns they just spray bullets everywhere from afar.

I dont believe this rot- its godlessness, its liberal values, its Hollywood, its video games, its single mothers, its same sex marriage. That crap gets blamed all the time- they blamed hippies and the 60's on it, they blamed anything bad in the 1970's on home video, the 80/90's video games- its an excuse. A pathetic excuse to avoid the issues or deal with Americas addiction to gun culture.

And all these things (up to and including severe mental health issues) are common in all western countries- only in America do schools and public places regularly get shot up- 19 times in less than two months. That does not happen in any other civilized country in the world.
And the main difference between America and all those other civilized countries?- gun control laws and restricted access for the public to guns and nationalised health care. The evidence is not only overwhelming its blatantly obvious. More guns in more peoples hands = more people getting shot. This isn't a difficult calculation to make!  

Take Dunblane as a good example- the last time this sort of thing happened here- immediately following it there was new regulations on gun ownership and types of firearms sold and how, our already fairly tight gun laws got made much, much more tight- in Scotland now you need a background check, a reaosn for use and to have secure storage areas just to own an airgun.
The result? How many times has the horror of Dunblane happened since? None, not once. Never happened again. And that's thanks to tightening of our gun control laws through legislation as an immediate response to just 1 school shooting- not 19 with nothing done at all, 1.

As to warning signs being missed on mental health- well that's hardly surprising in a country with barbaric health coverage. One of the advantages to government run health care is it can be much more integrated with other government agencies on a need to know basis, such as police, social work, mental health workers ect. Its not perfect, sometimes folk fall throw the cracks (thinking the tragedy of baby P here) but by in large its a far more effective way of flagging up troubled cases than not having it). Also this Figg is exactly why the SNP want the 'Named Person' scheme you keep rallying against the SNP for- to further aid with the integration of spotting these troubled youths and to have a named adult in the kids life, like a teacher, who can liaison as necessary with police, social work and health workers to flag up any potential issues.}}}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by bungobaggins on Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:19 pm

Along with the "18 shootings" "statistic" here are a couple other bits of fake news from the other day that spread like wildfire, and with the assurance of the left media and the left's domination on social media will see no correction or clarification.

http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-member-white-nationalist-militia-tallahassee-leader-say/341751002/

http://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment

The ACLU supported the repeal of this measure.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair

This is a societal, mental health, and cultural problem. These boys need fathers, they need stable families, they need emotional support and guidance; they've been discarded. We need a culture that doesn't glorify violence in films, rap music, etc. We need a media that doesn't plaster the shooters face and name all over. It's easy to say to just take everyone's guns away, or ban this or that gun. I think you only need to look at prohibition in America to see how that all worked out. People who want to get these guns and commit crimes will do it if they are legal or illegal. Especially with no southern border wall, I suspect you'd open an even wider market for banned guns coming into the country illegally.

Jordan Peterson addresses some of the problems young men face today.



https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/putting-monsterpaint-onjordan-peterson/550859/

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:39 pm

{{None of that explains why America is the anomaly here- other countries have all the same social issues as the US in regards to changing society- many of them are way ahead of the US- you were pretty late joining same sex marriage ect compared to other parts of the world. You're far more religious than many European countries (in the UK more than 50% are of no religion at all). The whole world watches the same media, listens to the same music. Yet only America has this problem on this scale. Therefore it cannot simply be down to the social issues you throw up as a smoke screen to the real problems.
There has to be a difference and the most obvious two differences are your laws on guns, or lack of them, and your lack of an integrated health service  covering everyone with your social work and police. Your system has no way to connect the dots when it should. And because of your gun laws when the dots aren't connected there is nothing to prevent the person going crazy and shooing somewhere up. }}}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:04 pm


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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:12 pm

"Also this Figg is exactly why the SNP want the 'Named Person' scheme you keep rallying against the SNP for"

keep? I would like citations for that claim. To my knowledge I mentioned it once when it first came up. But still, it still is a nasty piece of nanny state snooping with Orwellian undertones. its still the state doing a cut price Stasi police.

I refuse to listen to Peterson, he is a disingenuous pseudo-intellectual with a filthy sexist c***brain. Probably got a tiny dick and resents women.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:24 pm

{{ You have mentioned it more than once I am sure and posted from a right wing rag playing up your Orwellian undertones theme-its nothing of the sort, it was devised and asked for not by the government but by a group made up of representatives from all the relevant agencies, looking into how to prevent some children who were being abused, or could have mental health issues, from falling through the cracks in the existing system. It followed as a response to cases here and in England when the signs were clear yet missed because all the relevant information was not known by any one person or department.
The idea therefore is to have someone who has already been screened - teacher ect to act as a safeguard for certain children they would often be in contact with and to train them what to look out for. That person, if they had concerns would be able to alert social services, who in turn would be able to access medical, school and police reports of the child to see if any warning signs were being missed, without all the usual delays or rules keeping medical or police data secret from other parts of government. Its specifically designed to try to join all the dots.
Its to help prevent a child developing to the stage this young man did when he went on his murderous spree by intervening earlier with help. }}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by azriel on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:57 pm

When I was young toy guns were so common in the bedroom toy box. But, it was associated with Westerns like, The Lone Ranger. and often your best mate was Tonto. He'd get "shot" a dozen times & we'd move off to play something else. My son, donkeys years later, plays " Call of Duty", guns again & he's dam good at it. He came 2nd in a Contest laid on by a gaming company & I was so proud. You might think "proud" & guns ?? Well, I know that HE knows its just a game. He has no inclination to go shoot up in Eastbourne town centre. Me & my mates from years ago didn't even think of hurting anyone or anything. After the initial "bang bang your dead" era we grew up & got on with living life. My home life was broken, it was shit. I had a mum who didn't give a F**k, no dad, no siblings, bullied from kids from dusk till dawn but I didn't go on a rampage. I don't know of anyone who has. My son has blown up & killed that many thousands via video games yet he is ok, helpful, good natured lad. I wish I could understand what makes people tick ? I haven't been to America, I don't know any Americans to talk to about this, which would have been helpful, all I can guess at is the availability & the common knowledge that it IS ok to have a gun, its NOT unusual to have a gun at home, in your car, pocket, bag, wherever. Its a familiar item of daily wear in my eyes like the knuckle dusters of thug life in the 50's/60's & 70's, but even then it was only a few going around like that, it wasn't common place. Could it really be inherently a mentality that's wide spread all across a population ? I cant believe parents are telling their kids to pack a pistol with their pack lunch for school ? Even for safety reasons we here make sure our kids have mobile phones not guns, we tell them to call the police if worried not fucking blast them. We have serious issues here, Issues that drive people nuts like, paedophiles, rapists, murderers, same as any other country yet there are no guns brought out to shoot said criminals. I wonder if guns are too much of a common place item, too familiar, too daily that its taken for granted that you know where your gun is just as much as you know where your gloves are say ? And if no one seems to show any interest or minds that Mr Smith next door has a gun then is it that much of a deal ? Though for the life of me why do young men, as it often is, why they kill children I cant understand one bit. You have got to be one hell of a thoughtful & insightful Psychiatrist to unravel this problem.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by David H on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:02 pm

Speaking just from my obscure corner of the world, the prevalence of assault-style weapons now has a lot to do with a much older law that attempted to reduce the number of concealed weapons by basically making it illegal to shorten the barrel or stock of a rifle or shotgun. Now many farmers I know carry assault rifles in the cabs of their pickups because they're light, compact, cheap and use less expensive ammunition.  A neighbor was just showing me the new one he got for free from Cabela's with credit points. I won't get into the other arguments for now, but I'm just not buying the argument that they have no purpose. As a tool for pest control they're the best thing out there at the moment, largely because of the older restrictions.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:15 pm

{{Having gun control laws does not mean you cant have weapons as legitimate tools. If you were a farmer here Dave you would have a right to have a fire arm for work purposes- they'd still do a background check on you, you'd have be trained in its use, and they would occasionally pop by unannounced to check when not in use it is securely stored as is the ammo (that bit could be a pain it the arse but its to stop other people nicking it and using it). Game keepers, deer cullers, grouse shooting estates and many other professionals are legally allowed to own firearms for purposes of work. }}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:40 pm

{{Azriel- yes its exceptionally complicated when it comes to the mental health side of things. Why dos one child who grows up in a hostile abuse environment turn out to be the nicest person in the world (such as yourself) and yet another goes on to commit horrible acts?
From my own experience working with people with mental health and physical mental issues is that there is no such thing as sane and insane, there is just a big scale of grey, sane is probably somewhere in the middle, and most people fall somewhere round about it. But the lottery of genetics means some folk land further away on the scale than others, they have a different world (complicated by the fact most of the universe humans perceive is on the inside of their own heads where their response to it can be anything they create). }}}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by azriel on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:59 pm

Thankyou Petty, I'm trying to be at least a decent person but its not always easy. It IS easy to be selfish, blinkered & deaf dumb & blind to all around you. Its easy to have that " I'm alright Jack so sod you " attitude. The only other place that springs to mind is Africa for its gun ho attitude ? Oh hang on, there's also Serbia, I dunno. My neighbour thinks we don't have the gun problem here is because we have a Royal family. Maybe she has something there ? Does internal stability make a difference ?

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:29 pm

{{I think there is a great importance in terms of cohesiveness in symbols, and a great danger in them too.
I find little to distinguish when American crowds chant U. S. A over and over in a monotonous tone to Orwell's Party in 1984 chanting "B.B." over and over in a monotonous tone. Both send a chill up my spine. Though the ideals behind both might be opposite they share that sense of brainwashing into a single mob mentality- one mind in unison (ironic given the fear of 'reds under the bed' ).
Yet symbols are necessary, but I think they have to be used sparingly. I dont know if its true but folk I have spoken to who have visited America have commented on the fact there are US flags flying everywhere. Something you see a lot less of here except when an international match is on! Even our public buildings tend to be fairly modest in their flag use.
And unlike America we have no such weird thing as 'a pledge of allegiance' nor do we force our children to give such a pledge to their country.
I think a large part of that is Americas cultural diversity, its founding on immigration and slavery, and its sheer size. Its very hard I'd imagine to create a sense of one single nation across such a vast space and cultural and local differences and historic grievances- so a certain element of deliberate heavy-handed control methods are probably needed to create one- America tends to mythologize its history into useful icons that become part of the idea of what 'American' is. They treat their Constitution like its holy and call a bunch of 18th century squabbling politicians many of whom were of dubious morality 'Founding Fathers' (more shades of Big Brother!!)
Perhaps why the shift in culture is so difficult for America, it doesn't have the new icons yet to mythologize into part of what American is.

Royalty serves the same basic purpose here- its an idea. The Royals learned twice to use their position in times of crisis for stability. The first time they did it well, during WW2, staying in London for the Blitz and refusing to evacuate, standing with their people, turning up unexpectedly at bomb sites to help out, the Princes and Princess's all enlisting in one branch of service or another. And it worked.
We look to the Royals to voice our concerns back to us as nation- the voice of the British People (never her own though), when they do it well it helps heal divisions and creates a sense of national solidarity. A spoken sentiment in our name we can all generally agree on.
But as in the case of the death of Diana the backlash from doing the opposite can endanger the whole existence of a Monarchy. Its a powerful force.
In that case the Queen did not reflect back to the people their feelings ,grief and shock. She acted according to how she felt about and hat she felt should be the way to react to it. And the people revolted, at least in protest and voice.
It was only when the Queen not only returned back to physically see her people and to indulge them in simply expressing their feelings not her own that she regained favour with the public. And it helped national cohesion.
Even now, at Christmas there the most watched thing on UK TV on Xmas day was the Queens Speech. In every region of the UK. The Royal Family is probably the one cohesive, uniting symbol left in the UK.

I think at doing that- being a cypher for the people to voice their anxieties or fears or worries- the monarchy is a better figurehead than a President as they can be above politics, and even be seen to have to endure unpopular governments with their people which again helps keep things stable even under unpopular policies- most notably during parts of the Thatcher years. }}}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:18 pm

{{ You have mentioned it more than once I am sure and posted from a right wing rag playing up your Orwellian undertones theme-its nothing of the sort, it was devised and asked for not by the government but by a group made up of representatives from all the relevant agencies, looking into how to prevent some children who were being abused, or could have mental health issues, from falling through the cracks in the existing system. It followed as a response to cases here and in England when the signs were clear yet missed because all the relevant information was not known by any one person or department.



sorry didn't know that the Scottish Parent Teacher Council was a right wing rag. my mistake.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:25 pm

{{Pretty sure you also put up quotes from either the Daily Mail or the Express - however it is the intention of the policy is to help detect and help vulnerable children not to snoop.}}

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