The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by azriel on Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:16 pm

None of us want half the things that happen here (UK) To me, its all done & dusted. Government has made its mind up about what IT wants 5-10yrs into the future. They give us little scraps to chew on, like voting, to makes us feel we are helping to make decisions that will help run this country.....like Hell ! Government are clever enough at manipulation. They make you feel as though they understand you etc etc, like Hell ! No one watches my back, no one gives a toss if I live to be 100 yrs or die tonight. I'm a number, your a number, all us numbers are calculated on how much production we can generate. We should be bar coded when born. That's all we are, a means to an end, & not the end we want.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by malickfan on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:40 pm

Anyone else getting slightly more concerned about North Korea after today's developments?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-nuclear-latest-warhead-missile-report-miniature-us-intelligence-a7883101.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/08/trump-warns-north-korea-threats-will-be-met-with-fire-and-fury.html

I'm not necessarily convinced Kim Jong Un would be insane enough to actual order a nuclear attack, but tensions between North Korea and the USA haven't been this high for many years and I'm beginning to think something or someone is going to snap...and frankly Trump's boisterous attitude over Korea in recent weeks (not to mention the reports of his general incompetence as a leader, divided cabinet and declining domestic support...) does make you wonder who would actually trigger a hypothetical second conflict on the Korean Peninsula, Trump's phrasing certainly implies he'd be willing to order a nuclear strike (or at least pretending he would be...) and that is in itself a terrifying thought.

Also makes you wonder if this is just a distraction announcement, perhaps another big Trump administration leak is imminent...

*Shit, just read that the President apparently has complete unilateral control to order a nuclear strike without the backing of Congress or the Chiefs of Staff...well, that's slightly worrying...

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:41 pm

yep its bloody scary. Crying or Very sad


if we have nuclear armageddon before the end of Game of Thrones I will be truly pissed off.  Mad

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:09 am

Well to be clear, the only way nuclear deterrence works is if both sides are convinced the other side will pull the trigger in response to a first strike. I'm not saying Trump isn't an incompetent bozo, but even if he wasn't, his duty is to promise retaliation.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by malickfan on Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:52 am


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The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)

Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it  Suspect


I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:06 pm

Ok....now I'm scared.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by malickfan on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:12 pm

halfwise wrote:Ok....now I'm scared.

I'm just utterly baffled that the President has 'evangelical advisers' (not least because I doubt Trump is a christian) for a nation that preaches a separation of Church and State right wing Christians do seem to have a disturbing amount of lobbying power, most UK Prime Ministers have been religious but if they openly invoked religious beliefs or banged on about church every five minutes they'd be laughed out of office, the UK is predominately Christian in name only these days, the vast majority of my peers are atheists...

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Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it  Suspect


I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:19 pm


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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:23 pm

"Spiritual Advisor" is not an official role. It's sort of like mentioning someone's doctor. But yeah, the separation of church and state has never been seen here as a way to ignore religion, rather as a way not to trample on it.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:22 pm


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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:26 am

{{ So Trump finally responds to the white supremacists, two days late and off a pre written tele-prompter before exiting without any questions.
Didn't Trump used to berate Obama for using pre-scripted speeches off teleprompters?
And whilst Trump might have used the right words this time it all smacked to me watching it, off a little boy being forced to apologise and getting it over with as quick as they can. What it did not seem was sincere, just expediency.

What I dont get is why Trump is so unwilling to call them out- not like e is shy with his twitter opinions. They do make up a portion of his base as he did appeal to them in his campaign. 'America First' sounded very much like 'Whites First' to certain ears that's clear enough. And Trump having spent the previous Presidents entire term trying to undermine the black guy in the White House as not being a real America probably helped there. But they are a tiny percentage of the voting populace- seems to me Trump risks losing far more than he gains with his attitude to these groups. }}}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:36 am

{{open question- has Trump finally crossed a line for fellow Republicans?}}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Eldorion on Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:21 am

It'd be nice to think so but I'm not sure. It's been my impression for a while that most GOP politicians are too worried about the electoral costs of provoking (more) infighting with their base to do more than finger-wag at Trump. But on the other hand, Charlottesville does seem to have been a genuine moment of reckoning for some people. Maryland's Republican governor reversed his stance on removing Confederate monuments this week, though he's not representative of national Republicans on many issues.
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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by David H on Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:28 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{open question- has Trump finally crossed a line for fellow Republicans?}}

I'd say not. Avoiding taking a strong position is usually a safe move for any politician. He seems to be getting criticism from both sides, so I'd guess this is just going to add a bit more to the slow decline in confidence in this presidency. We'll see, but I think Trump is a tire with a slow leak.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:22 am

{{{you've got to laugh! }}}


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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:54 pm

{{ I see there has been another police shooting in the US, this one on a campus-

'A student at the Georgia Institute of Technology died early Sunday after police shot him on campus the previous evening -- when they said he refused officers’ orders to drop a knife he was holding.'

Now what I will never understand is why the US tolerates a police force who bring guns to a knife fight? Its not like in today's tech is at all necessary to protect yourself.





Seems to me the problem with US cops is when facing any threat at all, no matter the level, their first line of response is to open fire, when it should be at the end of a very long list of other options to try first. }}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by azriel on Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:47 pm

I agree. Its a confident win on the side of the police to use a bullet against a knife. Hardly a 'fair fight' is it ?

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:05 pm

They carry guns because they are more often faced with guns. Most people get shot because the police think they may be going for a gun when they reach for something.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by David H on Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:42 am

Yeah, there are a lot of handguns around. Always have been. There'd not be much point in calling the police most times if you thought they'd be coming without their sidearm.

There is a problem though in how often they shoot to kill when it might not have been necessary, but that's mostly a problem in the current training.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:40 am

azriel wrote:I agree. Its a confident win on the side of the police to use a bullet against a knife. Hardly a 'fair fight' is it ?

... It's not supposed to be a fair fight. scratch

But yeah, overuse of force is a serious problem. Many (most?) departments have policies regarding it that establish a continuum of appropriate responses to particular scenarios, but whether those policies are consistently followed or enforced is the big issue. I don't think there's as much transparency and accountability as there should be.


Last edited by Eldorion on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:43 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:42 am

It's also a problem with the current training of the US population.  Don't make any sudden moves around armed people in a tense situation.  A few of the killings by police have no reason to have happened, but most are because people don't calm down and the officers are rightfully frightened.

Better training of police on how to de-escalate such situations will definitely help, but it seems to me most experienced police are good at dealing with the public; there's some bad apples and a lot of inexperienced police out there.

Edit: I can't back up my statement of which situations are more common by independent review, but upon internal review most police are supported in their actions during a killing, and though there will be some "protect our own" bias in such reviews, I doubt more than a small fraction are rubber stamp procedures.

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:58 am

I don't have any studies to pull out offhand, but the "blue wall of silence" is a real thing and even when you have internal affairs investigators who genuinely want to find the truth and hold their fellow officers accountable (which is far from a given), it can be an uphill battle to try to get enough honest testimony to actually build a case. You've got commanders who want to protect the public image of the force, the threat of retaliation from officers who think it's necessary to preserve the cohesion of the force*, officers who think any use of force is appropriate because they've developed a sort of tribal siege mentality, some who are straight-up racists**, and so on.

*Which in this respect is similar to some of the issues surrounding sexual assault investigations in the military.
**Including actual Klansmen and neo-Nazis in some cases. https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/

Edit: to be clear though, I'm not trying to argue that the use of lethal force is never justified or that police never have reason to be worried for their safety. But I don't think it's unreasonable to hold police, who have the literal power of life and death over other people, to a higher standard than most professions.
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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:39 am

Most people get shot because the police think they may be going for a gun when they reach for something.- Halfy

{{That just doesn't seem to be the case in most of these sorts of police shootings Ive read about- this example is typical- the police had a person who they had clearly identified had a knife- they gave orders for the person to drop it, and when they didn't they opened fire.
What possible justification is there for a gun being the response to that? Its a knife, unless they get close enough to use it the person is harmless. Why is that a reach for a gun response and not a reach for a tazer response? Why would you use lethal force first against a non-lethal threat? }}}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by David H on Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:29 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Most people get shot because the police think they may be going for a gun when they reach for something.- Halfy

{{Why is that a reach for a gun response and not a reach for a tazer response? Why would you use lethal force first against a non-lethal threat? }}}

Because several years ago studies showed that most officers who were killed had hesitated at the critical second. So now officers are being trained to make split-second decisions, which are more often wrong and more often influenced by emotion than if they took a couple seconds longer. {{(That and the influence of first-person shooter games! Twisted Evil )}}

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Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

Post by halfwise on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:05 pm

Well the St Louis police certainly do not seem to be conducting themselves with any propriety. No

There is definitely no reason at all to shoot to kill someone with a knife. Shoot to disable perhaps, but there's plenty of time to make sure it's not lethal.

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