Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:06 pm

Interesting read Nod

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:38 pm

so Dark Matter. Is it the stuff at the edge of the Universe that leaks in. The stuff that was everywhere from before the Big Bang. and if it is, is that why its impossible to know what it is because its outside our experience?

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:23 pm

We know Dark Matter is there because galaxies spin faster than they should just by counting up the mass of everything that glows. There's extra gravity making the orbital speeds faster. It's not ordinary matter outside of stars (easy to count) because that would glow softly in the thermal infrared. So there's some extra mass unaccounted for that doesn't interact with the electro-magnetic fields that make up light, IR, etc. It's not just a simple observation uncertainty because there would have to be 5 times as much dark as ordinary matter to account for the galaxy rotational speeds.

This was noticed 20 years ago, and still nobody knows what the hell the stuff is. And nothing is wrong with the laws of gravity because that's been tested to hell and back.

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by David H on Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:01 pm

halfwise wrote:

This was noticed 20 years ago, and still nobody knows what the hell the stuff is.  And nothing is wrong with the laws of gravity because that's been tested to hell and back.

A bit of caution might be in order here. Remember that in the 19th century the Newtonian laws of gravity had been well tested too, and so when Mercury's numbers didn't quite add up the planet Vulcan was invented to explain it. Perhaps Dark Matter is really just composed of the particles of the planet Vulcan and all the other exploded theories that science has created and discarded over time?

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:51 pm

True, but I should reword that to say that the accuracy of the current theory of gravity has been tested to such an extent and over a large enough range of scales that it can't account for a whopping factor of 5 error in mass.  Mercury was a very small perturbation, as have been all the modifications of general relativity to newtonian gravity under all but extreme circumstances.  GPS only works because of the extreme high accuracy of general relativity.  But this is not on the same order as saying  galaxies must have 5 times the mass that we see.

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:21 pm

sorry to labour a point but if the Universe is finite and doesn't literally go on for ever there must be an edge where it stops and what if past this edge its Dark Matter in infinite quantities that goes on forever? we cant measure it because we don't have machines that have come across it before. and there's so much of it that it invades the visual Universe.

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:45 pm

supposedly the way to think of the edge of the universe is that it's asking like what's at the edge of the earth: it has finite area, but no edge.  2 dimensions curve around into 3 dimensions.  The same can be done with the 3 dimensions of our space curved up into a 4th dimension.

This leads to the thought that beams of light that don't hit anything may come back around again.  Except that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, so it's like an ant trying to circle a balloon that expands faster than it crawls.  Exploring all of this is frankly beyond my depth, I must confess. Like what happens if the universe's expansion is slowing down so that the light can catch up?

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:53 pm

I guess it's good to reflect at times that the Universe will eventually implode, leaving all human effort ultimately pointless. Shrugging

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:00 pm

I never expected humans to accomplish much anyway. We're in it for ourselves.

On further reading, the main reason people assume the universe is curved with no edge is to avoid infinity. Measurements show it's quite flat, but most measurements indicate the earth is rather flat as well, just ginormous compared to us. It could be infinite with no edge; it could possibly have an edge but people aren't sure how to deal with it; curved with no edge makes it easier, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:03 pm

halfwise wrote:I never expected humans to accomplish much anyway.  We're in it for ourselves.

So, it's not an excuse for not trying? scratch

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:09 pm

I agree, the human race is at its best when it's being tricked into accomplishing great things. Unless there's a bunch of pharoahs high-fiving each other somewhere, the pyramids are a great example.

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:31 pm

Hm, so I should perhaps make an effort then? scratch

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:33 pm

farao they have to live off some very dusty and shrivelled foodstuffs in those tombs so maybe they wont be high fiving it.

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:39 pm

I feel I'm getting mixed signals here. No

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:48 pm

It does seem to impress the ladies if you at least try. Shrugging  If not then drinking light beer in front of the telly is a good consolation prize.

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:24 pm

Who said anything about women? Shocked I was talking about school. Women is a completely different err.. kettle of fish.. err.. altogether..

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:30 pm

The problem of how to solve the size of the universe is very easy, its obviously infinitely finite Nod

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:39 pm

That's no help in dealing with women at all. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by David H on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:43 pm

halfwise wrote:True, but I should reword that to say that the accuracy of the current theory of gravity has been tested to such an extent and over a large enough range of scales that it can't account for a whopping factor of 5 error in mass.  Mercury was a very small perturbation, as have been all the modifications of general relativity to newtonian gravity under all but extreme circumstances.  GPS only works because of the extreme high accuracy of general relativity.  But this is not on the same order as saying  galaxies must have 5 times the mass that we see.

Sure, but my instincts tell me that hunting for all that invisible mass is going to be an exercise in chasing wild geese in the end.

If I had to bet, I'd bet that after decades of chasing invisible matter, eventually there will be a "Eureka!" moment when it becomes obvious that general relativity is actually just a special case of a greater gravitational theory, and once that happens "Dark Matter" books will get filed on the same shelf as books on "Luminiferous Ether".  

(Unfortunately those are the kind of bets you never get to collect on Mad )

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:44 pm

That's no help in dealing with women at all.- Blue


I thought I'd deal with the easier topic first Blue!

But my answer to the second point- How to deal with women is simple. Don't.

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:49 pm

Your advocating a cold war approach? Or a complete cessation of all formal and official communication? scratch

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:51 pm

Well the latter might be preferable but its not very practical. But give em an inch they take a mile, and, and here's the scary bit, you wont notice they have done it Mad

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:58 pm

Shocked Erm.. I might have read that wrong. Embarassed

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:14 pm

I think you might have done. On the other hand if all you have to give is an inch and she gets a mile out of it, she's a keeper Nod

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Re: Space and The wonders/mysteries of The Universe

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:30 pm

halfwise wrote:It does seem to impress the ladies if you at least try.  Shrugging    If not then drinking light beer in front of the telly is a good consolation prize.

Suspect you just wait, my pet theory of Dark Matter will be proven accurate and I will be high fiving crazy haired popular scientists on the Discovery Channel. oh yeah.

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