Game of Thrones [2]

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:45 am

There are a lot of differences between the last two books and the current season.  However Jon's arc in ADWD does end with a cliffhanger of him being stabbed by other members of the NIght's Watch, although the circumstances are different.  Almost no one believes that he is actually dead/going to stay dead.  One of the more popular theories is that he warged into Ghost, as there was some foreshadowing of this idea earlier in ADWD (Varamyr Sixskins survives the death of his human body through the same technique) and since Ghost was actually around in the books.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:54 am

I will say though that ending all the subplots on cliffhangers is one one of the most faithful decisions they could have made when it comes to adapting ADWD.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:04 am

Regarding the Stannis survival theories, the HBO viewer guide has already put a kibosh on that.

Spoiler:
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:42 am

I was going to watch the entirety of this tonight, but i have a feeling it's going to get rather painful. (More quality wise than anything else, though.) Maybe if I approach it like a parody..? scratch

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:27 am


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:30 am

From said article.

“Game of Thrones” is fun on an otherwise dull Sunday night. “Game of Thrones” provides a nice opportunity for water cooler chat with co-workers you would’ve otherwise stood with in awkward silence. “Game of Thrones” does not tell “A Song of Ice and Fire’s” story. “Game of Thrones” is a monster, a dragon, of its own now — a product reducing the most gripping moments from Martin’s books into tawdry instances of shock value, absent of any lasting emotion other than “Oh my god; I didn’t expect that!” But “themes are for eighth grade book reports,” according to Benioff. So what does accuracy matter so long as the right person sits on the Iron Throne in the end?

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:58 pm

I haven't seen the last episode yet so thanks for the spoiler warnings. Mad good job I realised in time and stopped reading.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by bungobaggins on Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:50 pm

Eh...the Arya scenes were the only really good ones.

Spoiler:
I know I was complaining earlier about not much happening in this season. But now that stuff is happening, most of it is rushed and doesn't make a lot of sense.

"Oh, half of our men have deserted and taken all of the horses? Let's attack Winterfell." That was so stupid.

The Sansa stuff just feels tacked on; did they jump onto a big trampoline or bouncy-house?

It seemed pretty clear to me that Jon was killed. Whether or not he wargs into Ghost? I doubt it, because they haven't shown Jon warg at all throughout the entire series. I'm also getting real sick of Sam's character. So tired of his schtick.

Here's a question: If Cersei still has to have a trial, then why did she do the walk of atonement? Also, isn't Robert Strong supposed to be headless?

Are books four and five really this bad?
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by bungobaggins on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:07 pm

Glad to see
Spoiler:
Varys
again, though. Very Happy
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:25 pm


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:31 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I haven't seen the last episode yet so thanks for the spoiler warnings. Mad good job I realised in time and stopped reading.

scratch No one has been consistently using spoiler tags for already aired episodes in this thread for a while now.  I did tag some of the images since I figured those would jump out at people skimming the thread more easily though. I'll try and tag specifics going forward for a couple of days though I guess.


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:34 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Are books four and five really this bad?

Nowhere close. They have some pacing issues, and spend a lot of time on set up and delving into the characters rather than focus on the more action oriented approach of the first three books, but they are at least narratively coherent, and the shocking moments feel earned and a natural part of the narrative.

I think the best description I've heard if this season said they hit most of the important plot points, but removed all context and as such most of the meaning from those, supposed to be, monumental moments.  

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, did a certain someone loose all his horses for the second episode running? (They just don't care anymore, do they. Rolling Eyes)


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:34 pm

Bluebottle wrote:I was going to watch the entirety of this tonight, but i have a feeling it's going to get rather painful. (More quality wise than anything else, though.) Maybe if I approach it like a parody..? scratch

I mean if you're still watching at this point I don't think it's on another level from the rest of the season.

NB unrelated, but remember how it was "confirmed" that

Spoiler:
Yara Greyjoy came back? Weeeeell... Laughing
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:44 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Eh...the Arya scenes were the only really good ones.

Spoiler:
I know I was complaining earlier about not much happening in this season. But now that stuff is happening, most of it is rushed and doesn't make a lot of sense.

"Oh, half of our men have deserted and taken all of the horses? Let's attack Winterfell." That was so stupid.

The Sansa stuff just feels tacked on; did they jump onto a big trampoline or bouncy-house?

It seemed pretty clear to me that Jon was killed. Whether or not he wargs into Ghost? I doubt it, because they haven't shown Jon warg at all throughout the entire series. I'm also getting real sick of Sam's character. So tired of his schtick.

Here's a question: If Cersei still has to have a trial, then why did she do the walk of atonement? Also, isn't Robert Strong supposed to be headless?

Are books four and five really this bad?

Spoiler:
I felt like show!Stannis was supposed to be depicted as suicidal after realizing the mistake that he'd made burning Shireen.  Either that or his pride just wouldn't let him back down so he decided to do a suicidal attack anyway.  But he's also pretty dumb, not noticing the Bolton army falling down on him until his aide said something.  That he didn't even try to form his men up could be due to D&D's lack of interest in military matters, but taking the show at face value, could be an indication of Stannis being resigned to the hopelessness of his situation.  That's about as much as I'm willing to try to make sense of this subplot though; it was really stupid.

In the books, Theon and Jeyne Poole (whose role has been given to Sansa, basically) jumped into a ~40 feet deep snowdrift, so they survived.  But considering that, in the show, everything's melting like it's already early spring, who knows what they landed in.  The show did just depict Myranda dying after falling a similar height. Shrugging

If Jon is going to survive in the show, it'd have to be because of Melisandre, who had just showed up.  Using warging would be total bullshit since it has been downplayed and, in the case of Jon, completely excised.  I'm not sure how to feel about Sam's character.  Sometimes he's reminiscent of his book counterpart, like his "oh my" during sex with Gilly, and other times he behaves completely differently, bragging about killing white walkers and getting laid.  Since the former occurred before he lost his virginity, you can't even say that having sex "made him a man" or developed his confidence.

In the book Strong is presumed to be headless, but I don't really mind them changing that.  But the fact that you can see part of his face through the helmet (as well as getting periodic glimpses inside of Qyburn's laboratory) does remove some (er, actually all) of the ambiguity.  As for the walk of atonement, I've always read it as a power play by the Faith.  In the books, especially the epilogue to ADWD, it's made clear that most people consider Cersei to be "damaged goods" and not possible of being taken seriously as a regent anymore after the walk.  That'd be consistent with Tywin's use of the walk in the backstory against his father's mistress.  Although the show made the walk a gender neutral practice by showing the old High Septon forced to perform one earlier in this season, which casts the whole thing in a different light.

Books four and five have a LOT of problems, especially book four, but they're very different problems from this season.  As far as pacing goes, they're pretty much the opposite; too little happens over 2000+ pages of bloat, as opposed to things being rushed beyond the point of being able to make sense of them.  Though a lot of the plotlines do still end on cliffhangers, often the same cliffhangers, as in the show.  As far as characterization and plotting, Martin seems to have a much stronger grasp of the basic rules of storytelling than D&D too, with his biggest weakness on this front being losing sight of the overall narrative and getting distracted by self-indulgent, unnecessary side stories and worldbuilding that drags the whole thing down.


Last edited by Eldorion on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by bungobaggins on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:45 pm

Ned Stark confirmed for season 6.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by bungobaggins on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:07 pm

Eldorion wrote:
bungobaggins wrote:Eh...the Arya scenes were the only really good ones.

Spoiler:
I know I was complaining earlier about not much happening in this season. But now that stuff is happening, most of it is rushed and doesn't make a lot of sense.

"Oh, half of our men have deserted and taken all of the horses? Let's attack Winterfell." That was so stupid.

The Sansa stuff just feels tacked on; did they jump onto a big trampoline or bouncy-house?

It seemed pretty clear to me that Jon was killed. Whether or not he wargs into Ghost? I doubt it, because they haven't shown Jon warg at all throughout the entire series. I'm also getting real sick of Sam's character. So tired of his schtick.

Here's a question: If Cersei still has to have a trial, then why did she do the walk of atonement? Also, isn't Robert Strong supposed to be headless?

Are books four and five really this bad?

Spoiler:
I felt like show!Stannis was supposed to be depicted as suicidal after realizing the mistake that he'd made burning Shireen.  Either that or his pride just wouldn't let him back down so he decided to do a suicidal attack anyway.  But he's also pretty dumb, not noticing the Bolton army falling down on him until his aide said something.  That he didn't even try to form his men up could be due to D&D's lack of interest in military matters, but taking the show at face value, could be an indication of Stannis being resigned to the hopelessness of his situation.  That's about as much as I'm willing to try to make sense of this subplot though; it was really stupid.

In the books, Theon and Jeyne Poole (whose role has been given to Sansa, basically) jumped into a ~40 feet deep snowdrift, so they survived.  But considering that, in the show, everything's melting like it's already early spring, who knows what they landed in.  The show did just depict Myranda dying after falling a similar height. Shrugging

If Jon is going to survive in the show, it'd have to be because of Melisandre, who had just showed up.  Using warging would be total bullshit since it has been downplayed and, in the case of Jon, completely excised.  I'm not sure how to feel about Sam's character.  Sometimes he's reminiscent of his book counterpart, like his "oh my" during sex with Gilly, and other times he behaves completely differently, bragging about killing white walkers and getting laid.  Since the former occurred before he lost his virginity, you can't even say that having sex "made him a man" or developed his confidence.

In the book Strong is presumed to be headless, but I don't really mind them changing that.  But the fact that you can see part of his face through the helmet (as well as getting periodic glimpses inside of Qyburn's laboratory) does remove some (er, actually all) of the ambiguity.  As for the walk of atonement, I've always read it as a power play by the Faith.  In the books, especially the epilogue to ADWD, it's made clear that most people consider Cersei to be "damaged goods" and not possible of being taken seriously as a regent anymore after the walk.  That'd be consistent with Tywin's use of the walk in the backstory against his father's mistress.  Although the show made the walk a gender neutral practice by showing the old High Septon forced to perform one earlier in this season, which casts the whole thing in a different light.

Books four and five have a LOT of problems, especially book four, but they're very different problems from this season.  As far as pacing goes, they're pretty much the opposite; too little happens over 2000+ pages of bloat, as opposed to things being rushed beyond the point of being able to make sense of them.  Though a lot of the plotlines do still end on cliffhangers, often the same cliffhangers, as in the show.  As far as characterization and plotting, Martin seems to have a much stronger grasp of the basic rules of storytelling than D&D too, with his biggest weakness on this front being losing sight of the overall narrative and getting distracted by self-indulgent, unnecessary side stories and worldbuilding that drags the whole thing down.  I guess you could call it Malazan syndrome. Razz

Spoiler:
Oh yes, Melisandre had returned to the wall. But why? Plus if she does resurrect Jon, what would his purpose be? A male Lady Stoneheart? Jon essentially failed as Lord commander, he had good intentions, but like Kit Harrington said in that interview, he wasn't looking out for his own. So, if Jon comes back, what will his purpose be? He can't take back command of the night's watch (and at this point it looks like D&D are going to have Olly be elected as new Lord commander).

I never did finish the first book in the series, got close though. Kind of glad I didn't get very far and invested in the books when the TV show is, by the looks of it, making things worse. It'd just be another hobbit situation all over again. My life doesn't need any more crabbit than it already has.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:45 pm

In the interest of fairness, I did really like the scene with Sam and Jon discussing what it was like to be the most hated person in Castle Black.  I'm pretty sure that was a show invention. Well-written and acted IMO.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:14 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:I was going to watch the entirety of this tonight, but i have a feeling it's going to get rather painful. (More quality wise than anything else, though.) Maybe if I approach it like a parody..? scratch

I mean if you're still watching at this point I don't think it's on another level from the rest of the season.

NB unrelated, but remember how it was "confirmed" that

Spoiler:
Yara Greyjoy came back? Weeeeell... Laughing

True, though I'll approach it with caution. Smile I didn't watch the Stannis scenes last week, and I really struggle to with what they have done with the Winterfell arc. I could watch them for the giggles, because going by the descriptions it sounds hilarious..ly bad, but I don't know if I'm a little too invested in that part of the story.

Spoiler:
Yeah... *sigh*

It's odd as they got the guy playing Mossador right.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:59 pm

I am watchin ep 10 in one hours time so you don't need to use spoilers after that

ta very much Razz

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:54 pm

well contrary to you guys I thought it was brilliant! what a finale! I actually felt physically sick during the walk of shame. It was awesome. I love you god I love that show, didn't want it to end.

hey I did get to see Frankenmountain after all Razz

Jon Sad cant believe that happened.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:32 pm

I reckon Bran will save Jon.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by halfwise on Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:59 pm

Spoilers are officially extinquished from the thread!

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Norc on Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:29 am

NOOOOOOOOOO! What the fuck was that ? This whole season was rubbish!
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:26 am

Eldorion wrote:lol

In and of itself, "for the watch" was done pretty well (except for the inclusion of Olly).  But the rushed and truncated plotline made robbed it of any real meaning beyond the emotional impact, though again, I'll acknowledge that they know how to deliver gut punches effectively.

I think you mean gut stabs.   Wink

lol!  Norc, leaving her signature post on the thread.

For a while there I thought we were finally going to find out what happened to Benjen Stark. We were getting to stuff beyond the published material, and so I thought it was possible. Stupid Benjen Stark... Just like how, in the books, it's not really made obvious that The Hound is dead.

I didn't expect Stannis to die! That came as an unpleasantly suitable ending to his recent sorrows. What did not come as a surprise, however, was the poisoning of Myrcella. When Dornish-wench kissed her on the lips I wondered if something was up, and when Myrcella and Jamie reconciled the truth of their lineage I knew something was up because the show has been killing off any daughters that express mutual love with their fathers recently.


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:23 am

Forest Shepherd wrote:I think you mean gut stabs.   Wink

Fair point. Wink

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