Game of Thrones [2]

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:59 pm

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:39 am

Out of context snippets of quotes aren't really going to do your argument any good. It's a bit like arguing for a result in a legal case on the basis of a buzzfeed article.

If you read closer you'll find it's all based on quotes made by Geroge on his own story in the books, misconstrued by the media to relate to the show.

It's mostly based on this interview, that was taken completely out of context by EW,

EW spoke to author George R.R. Martin to get his perspective on the female characters’ storylines in his bestselling A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Keep in mind the HBO series is sometimes slammed for including scenes that Martin did not write (such as the recent rape of Sansa Stark, which happened to a minor character in Martin’s A Dance with Dragons), but likewise there are ways in which the show has made its female characters arguably more likeable (such as Sansa’s character in general), or gave them empowering new sequences (such as Brienne fighting The Hound). In general, the show and books operate from a similar creative perspective in terms of how they portray life in Westeros and Essos.

(That EW thinks the show and the books are simmilar does not really interest me..)

and then just grew in hyperbole as it was picked up by hte rest of the media.

George RR Martin defends Game of Thrones rape as portraying reality of war
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/04/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-rape-reality-of-war

Yeah, no..

What people need to realize is that the way tings are done matters. That is why George displaying sexual violence as a larger thematic commentary on both the medieval world and the world we still live in..

“The books reflect a patriarchal society based on the Middle Ages. The Middle Ages were not a time of sexual egalitarianism. It was very classist, dividing people into three classes. And they had strong ideas about the roles of women. One of the charges against Joan of Arc that got her burned at the stake was that she wore men’s clothing—that was not a small thing. There were, of course, some strong and competent women. It still doesn’t change the nature of the society. And if you look at the books, my heroes and viewpoint characters are all misfits. They’re outliers. They don’t fit the roles society has for them. They’re ‘cripples, bastards, and broken things‘—a dwarf, a fat guy who can’t fight, a bastard, and women who don’t fit comfortably into the roles society has for them (though there are also those who do—like Sansa and Catelyn).

“Now there are people who will say to that, ‘Well, he’s not writing history, he’s writing fantasy—he put in dragons, he should have made an egalitarian society.’ Just because you put in dragons doesn’t mean you can put in anything you want. If pigs could fly, then that’s your book. But that doesn’t mean you also want people walking on their hands instead of their feet. If you’re going to do [a fantasy element], it’s best to only do one of them, or a few. I wanted my books to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like, and I was also reacting to a lot of fantasy fiction. Most stories depict what I call the ‘Disneyland Middle Ages’—there are princes and princesses and knights in shining armor, but they didn’t want to show what those societies meant and how they functioned.

“I have millions of women readers who love the books, who come up to me and tell me they love the female characters. Some love Arya, some love Dany, some love Sansa, some love Brienne, some love Cersei—there’s thousands of women who love Cersei despite her obvious flaws. It’s a complicated argument. To be non-sexist, does that mean you need to portray an egalitarian society? That’s not in our history; it’s something for science fiction. And 21st century America isn’t egalitarian, either. There are still barriers against women. It’s better than what it was. It’s not Mad Men any more, which was in my lifetime.

“And then there’s the whole issue of sexual violence, which I’ve been criticized for as well. I’m writing about war, which what almost all epic fantasy is about. But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that. Rape, unfortunately, is still a part of war today. It’s not a strong testament to the human race, but I don’t think we should pretend it doesn’t exist.

“I want to portray struggle. Drama comes out of conflict. If you portray a utopia, then you probably wrote a pretty boring book.”

(What George actually said to EW, which did not relate to the show in any way..)

is not the same as displaying it for gratuity or titilation as part of a the larger "nothing is nothing" nihilistic theme-less value void that is GoTs.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:40 am

And.. here's why..

Yes, the world in which Martin set his A Song of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF) is a terribly sexist one. But George R.R. Martin is not sexist. The books are not sexist. The show…is. And here’s why: where Martin actively forces the reader to address the problematic treatment of women in his series head-on as an overarching theme, showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss (D&D) actively incorporate sexist tropes and demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the source material.
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/117645193922/got-meta-depiction-vs-endorsement-and-sexism

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by chris63 on Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:44 am


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by halfwise on Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:43 pm

You are definitely right that Martin's comments about his own books can not be used to argue against the more subtle attacks on the show: the fault is not in having sex and violence, but in way it is portrayed relative to the books.

And yet as I've said several times before (and others here have said the same), I feel much of this criticism (almost all from that one site you quote over and over) is just twisting things around to suit their pre-established view. It seems to me that since violence and unwanted sex will always be horrible, this one critic (and you rarely quote any others) will jump on any deviation from the books and say 'look how terrible this is', when the same could be done with scenes taken directly from the books. Some of her points are on target, but the majority are just artfully written blather.

If it were possible to do a blind experiment, I would take scenes from Martin's yet to be published manuscript and scenes from the not yet televised GOT thrones scripts. Do a careful conversion of GRRM's writing into scripts, then mix them up at random. See if your critic can tell which is which. If she hits better than 66% accuracy (slightly better than 50% random guesses) then I'd be surprised.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:25 pm

My question is, is rape in the books any different to rape in the show? surely rape is rape? its like making a distinction between various methods of punching someone in the face. is one less painful than the other, is one less morally wrong? I think its preposterous to criticise one type of rape being worse than another. People could argue the intentions are different between Martin and D&D but that is disingenuous, Martin is selling a product as much as D&D.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Lancebloke on Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:55 pm

Figgy - yes, rape is rape. But there is a difference between someone using the concept to reflect the attitudes of the people in its world to someone using it to make you go 'oh shit... she is getting raped.'

The show clearly does it on occasions for that value, nothing else.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:15 pm

I don't think that is clear by watching the show. How can you tell? surely if they wanted to be cynical sensationalists they would have shown the rape in all its details, they would have made a spectacle but they most definitely did not do that as regards Sansa because we did not actually see the rape so its difficult for me to know why anyone could think its just 'oh shit she is getting raped' they reflected that world and they reflected Ramsey's character as I understand it this happened to Jane instead in the books so whats the beef? Its quite bizarre that nobody says that the frequent hanging, head chopping and disemboweling celebrates violence, because nobody does say that, because we accept it as part of that world. Its just as morally wrong as rape but we don't get so finger pointy at all the blood letting and I wonder why. I would argue that the show does show graphic violence and its sometimes for shock value only, but we like it, its entertaining, like its entertaining to watch the Hound do his stuff,
(not saying we should find the rape scene entertaining or the burning of Shireen, but its not meant to titillate but to make you empathise with the suffering of the character.) but it is a strange distinction we are making between violence and sexual violence as if one is ok to watch but not the other.
The off scene rape of Sansa suddenly raises a hornets nest of Mary Whtehouses. You cant say that just because Martin writes about a violent rape that its legit but D&D penned rape is not legit. Like because Martin writes it, its suddenly a 'justifiable rape' because its in a book rather than on telly. Its like saying he is superior because its in a book as opposed to the tv medium, and that's what it boils down to because they both write as part of the media world. There cant be classy rape and cheap rape, its just rape and we either accept it as part of that world or we don't watch the show. From the start that's what we were getting when we watched GOT. it pushes all the boundaries and then some.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by chris63 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:02 am

This dont look good for Jon.


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:16 pm

Shocked

But I don't think he gives any fuqs at this point.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:50 am

I did not much care for episode 8. I think it was my second least-favourite episode this season after the first one.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by chris63 on Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:22 am


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by chris63 on Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:24 am


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:28 pm

that last one made me giggle Laughing
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:30 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:I did not much care for episode 8. I think it was my second least-favourite episode this season after the first one.

yep it was a bit of a filler/set-up episode. The Arya storyline was a let down imo. My favourite was probably the Hound finding a place in life where he can fight for good and the Cercei showdown.

Be prepared to have your socks blown off in episode 9. What a Face
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Lancebloke on Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:14 pm

Figgy - the Sansa scene I didn't have an issue with. Two scenarios I could go back to would be Craster's keep with the night watch traitors randomly shagging women in the background... no need for that really.

The second is the Jamie/Cersei scene which I believe makes scenes like Jamie at riverrun doing whatever he can for her a bit empty. He is prepared to rape her against her will... that was selfish and cheapens his character. That scene was added for the show and, in my view, contradicts the character they seem to be trying to build him in to.

Also... it isn't just rape for me. There is plenty of violence that is just for the shock aesthetic. A split second of the hound getting his dick out last week... that seemed a bit 'even things up with all the tits we keep showing.' I am all for more boobs on screen but in context and not cutting away quickly and trying to make it more than it is.


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by halfwise on Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:34 pm

I agree the Jaime/Cersei scene was a bad move and should have been handled differently. But Craster's keep I think was in line with what a bunch of men with criminal backgrounds who have been denied women and are busy throwing off authority with bloodshed....that's kind of what would happen.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:31 pm

halfwise wrote:I agree the Jaime/Cersei scene was a bad move and should have been handled differently.  But Craster's keep I think was in line with what a bunch of men with criminal backgrounds who have been denied women and are busy throwing off authority with bloodshed....that's kind of what would happen.

I agree with you about Crasters Keep. It was alongside the drinking out of Mormont's skull. It was supposed to be hellish and horrible. As for Cercei and Jaime I think it underlined their unnatural relationship, its very difficult to remember sometimes they are actually twins, most of the time their relationship seems like a normal pair of lovers and I forget that its actually icky, so the so called 'rape scene' brought it back to the brass tacks, they have an unnatural and sometimes violent sexual relationship. Their relationship is never going to be exactly normal.
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by chris63 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:37 am

Don't they look different. I like the music as well.


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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by halfwise on Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:44 pm

It looks like there was great TV but many lapses in logic.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/game-thrones-episode-9-two-bloody-battles-story-162348563.html

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:18 pm

Go and watch it on the biggest screen you can find with some Cheese Whiz on crackers and then come back and tell me if you give two hoots about logic. Very Happy
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:44 pm

Sometimes life in the GOT 'verse seems really shitty, but then you remember that they live in a world where canned cheese whiz doesn't exist and you start to feel jealous. No
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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by halfwise on Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:46 am

I thought you were going to say that not only was their life shitty, but they didn't even have cheez whiz on crackers to look forward to at the end of a shitty day.

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:13 am

What is cheez whiz? Is it like sprayable cheese?

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Re: Game of Thrones [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:16 am

Americans Rolling Eyes

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