Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:44 pm

{{{ Its almost impossible to tell how far back astronomy- in the sense of deliberately monitoring the stars and planets movements and recording in them in some fashion goes.
All we can say for certain is that it must have been going on for some time before the first surviving means of recording it survives.
As whether its circles, or later temple, pyramid or texts recording the information its clear they contain knowledge that would have taken centuries or more to accumulate though observation.

Though I have no way to proof it my gut instinct is that circles came about as experimental means of marking the movements for recording them.
I imagine some early astronomers standing in an open field trying to use the horizon- how do you measure changes? Stick a stick up marking where the sun rises, come back every day put a stick up every day- eventually you will track the rising of the sun across the horizon. But finding a suitable field to stand in with a clear horizon all round can be tricky- hence the invention of the henge- an artificial horizon and much better than field- once you have that and you start sticking marker stones or sicks up for stuff you start to get something resembling a circle and recording the movements.
The final development would then be some bright spark realizing if you put a pole in the middle and used the suns shadow to tell you where to put the stones, rather than trying to place them by eye, you get a really accurate circle that will work every time and builds itself.
But all of that would have been on the backs of half mythologized tales of sun and moon ect and generations of eye observations passed down the generations in tales and legends (this is not uncommon later- the numbers in the Osiris/Isis/Set tales are astronomical in nature- even though in the story they are attributed as numbers of people attending a banquet ect present. The same is true of many Mayan stories, which also incorporate important astronomical numbers in to their stories. And in both cases much of the same information is also encoded in their buildings.
It seems to have been a means of hiding sacred knowledge in plain sight- it informed everything but it was never on the surface- hidden in myths and religious texts or in the fabric of the temples and buildings themselves- presumably the idea being the 'magic' of the numbers would work on their own anyway even if you did not understand them, and those with eyes to see would pick up on it and so gain the secret information also contained.

Thing is in Sumeria, cradle of civilisation, there doesn't seem to be much astronomy in the record.
A lot of folk attribute the idea of ziggurats and platforms to being astronomical- but beyond some fairly simple orientations they arent really in my eyes- and I even doubt the idea they were built on the basis of 'reaching the heavens'- some later texts refer to them that way but they are speaking across at least a thousand years of time before setting them down. Rather I think ziggurats came about purely out of an earlier technique- the first Temple at the apsu was built over many times in its centuries of use and each time they knocked down the upper walls, filled in the interior, made a flat surface over it and built the new temple on top of the sacred old one, preserving it- after many generations of this what you got was a raised platform. And as this was essentially the mother temple, the template for all those which followed in the new city states of Summer they all went down the raised temple route. So I dont think they were astronomical at all in purpose or design.

This all leaves a puzzle in the record- as when the first recognisable Egyptian kingdom springs up it not only has astronomy, its clearly based on much older observations going back centuries or more- so where did it all come from? (This is where a lot of modern writers like Hancock ect like to stick their aliens or ancient civilisation that went missing in a cataclysm and whose survivors popped up in Egypt, Summer, south America ect and taught everyone agriculture and astronomy).

I have a theory about that myself revolving around the Book of Enoch and the section on the Luminaries that doesn't need aliens or antediluvian advanced humans, just a very long but possible journey, but that's a whole other post! }}}

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by David H on Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:26 pm

Smaller, less dramatically built astronomical calendars are all around us though. Here's the best documented one that's pretty close to here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skystone

I'd bet that for every one of these circles that's carved or erected in stone there were hundreds or thousands that were just a circle of sticks on a hilltop like you suggest, for local ceremonies and instructing the next generation in the mysteries of the sky.

This old knowledge seems to appear everywhere in the world where man has traveled to, like fire and knives (and possibly oceangoing boats) which are generally agreed to have been around for half a million years. And like a smoldering fire, it bursts into flame periodically, as with the Egyptians.

At least that's the way I see it from here...

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:36 pm

{{That looks incredibly similar to the cupmarked rocks that are all over the UK and Europe but particularly Scotland, though no one has yet worked out what they mean }}




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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by David H on Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:03 pm

Yep. You find those stones all over the world under different names. There's no way I know of to date them accurately, but it sure appears that it's a common technology with a common purpose, like when you find mortar stones. This was part of the common human toolkit.

You said you haven't looked into North American antiquities much? You should check out the Mound Building cultures that left their marks over a lot of this continent over the last 6,000 years or so.  I think Watson Brake is considered to be one of the oldest at 3,500 BCE.

Poverty Point in Louisiana looks like it's one of the most accurately studied mound complexes.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_Point

The Newark Earthworks seem to be pretty well studied for precise astronomy.
In 1982 researchers from Earlham College in Richmond, Indiana concluded that the complex was a lunar observatory, designed to track motions of the moon, including the northernmost point of the 18.6-year cycle of the lunar orbit. When viewed from the observatory mound the moon rises at that time within one-half of a degree of the octagon's exact center. The earthwork is twice as precise as the complex at Stonehenge (assuming Stonehenge is an observatory, which is a disputed theory)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Earthworks

You've got to be careful though, as I'm sure you know. There's a lot of New Age  spiritual tourism about these old sites that muddies the waters of fact, much like with Stonehenge groupies on your side.

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by halfwise on Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:58 pm

Cahokia deserves a look.

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:56 am

{{{A digression- the interesting tale of Enoch.

The Book of Enoch is an apocryphal gospel, but it was certainly known to the bible writers as they quote it. Most scholars believe the Old Testament was first collated during the second captivity of the Jews in Babylon. Given you cant quote a story that isn't already in existence that puts the book of Enoch as a written, recorded text back to at least 1000bc, with Babylon founded in 2300bc. Though the tale is probably even older than that as the Babylonian practice was to teach scribes the trade by having them write and transcribe old texts from Sumer (by the time of Babylon Sumerian language was like the Latin of its day, no one spoke it anymore but you weren't a proper scribe unless you could do it- its thanks to this Scribal quirk that we have Sumerian works like the Epic of Gilgamesh at all). The oldest version of the Book Of Enoch we currently have comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls archive from Qumran, but the tales is obviously much, much older.

So whats it about? Well angels in part, or to be more precise Watchers.

The Watchers probably need some explanation- which is tricky because no one really knows where they come from, who they were really, or what they were based on.
What we can say about them is that they are human in appearance save for having 'shining faces' they eat, sleep and have sex (quite a lot in fact of that!) and they can be physically harmed. In short apart from being granted hidden knowledge and wisdom, and the shiny face thing, they act just like people. The name Watchers literally means 'awake, watchful' and the root of their legend is thought most likely to be at least Babylonian, possibly going as far back as Sumer, and may be a later corruption of the Sumerian Annuki, the 7 sages that taught man agriculture, astronomy ect In the Bible Watcher is often translated as angel. So for example the angels that appear in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah are Watchers even though its usually translated as angels.
For me Watchers has always seemed a really good name to give a bunch of proto-astronomers.

So now we know, roughly, what Watchers are who the heck is Enoch?

Well according to the Bible Enoch was born a couple of generations before Noah, and the seventh generation from Adam.
As such like all pre-Noah folks in the Bible he is attributed a very long life span- 365 years to be exact- though personally I think the number is representative of the astronomical knowledge Enoch represents.
The version of the tale we have is one from long, long after the events it records, if it records real events at all ( I think it does) and dating when the original tale is set is not easy. However if my idea is correct its actually possible to pinpoint these events to within a few decades. But more on that later.

So we have our players- Enoch and a bunch of angels called Watchers. So what's the tale?

Well a bunch of Watchers turn up at Enoch's place one day and take him on a long journey. So long that Enoch, who is the observant type and fortunately the record keeping type, notices that the lengths of the day are changing, so he handily records them as he travels.
This actually gives us a fairly decent rough guide to taking a stab at what latitude he must have traveled to in order to match the day lengths he records. What we dont know is if he went north or south as sadly that bit of info is missing.
However if you check the rough latitude in the southern hemisphere its just sea unless he traveled right round the globe, which though not technically impossible seems unlikely in a time with no established routes or trade that way.
However if you go north there are a few options in that latitude band that includes Ireland, Scotland, Norway, northern Russia ect. And we know there was some back and forth between northern Europe and the middle-east as there is evidence of some trade links in existence already for blue stone and tin.
But in order to be sure if he went north or south and exactly where he went we have to look at where the story says he arrived at for our clues.

The place to which the Watchers take Enoch for instruction has a wall that blazes like a fire and at this place he is shown the movements of the heavenly bodies as seen through a series of 'gates' and 'portals'- there are long listings of these recordings in the following form-

'the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, and its setting in the western portals of the heaven. 3. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other in accurately corresponding order: also many windows to the right and left of these portals.'

Its not just the movements of the bodies in these portals that Enoch is taught the importance of, but also time-

'And then the day becomes longer by two parts and amounts to eleven parts, and the night becomes shorter and amounts to seven parts. And it returns to the east and enters into the sixth portal, and rises and sets in the sixth portal one-and-thirty mornings on account of its sign.'

Having dealt with the sun and the stars and their movements through these portals and the intervals it takes Enoch is then instructed on the moon-

' And after this law I saw another law dealing with the smaller luminary, which is named the Moon.......And her first phase in the east comes forth on the thirtieth morning: and on that day she becomes visible, and constitutes for you the first phase of the moon on the thirtieth day together with the sun in the portal where the sun rises. And the one half of her goes forth by a seventh part, and her whole circumference is empty, without light, with the exception of one-seventh part of it, (and) the fourteenth part of her light..'


Studious scholar and student that Enoch is he goes on to record all this information for later use and study-

'all these Uriel, the holy angel who is the leader of them all, showed to me, and their positions, and I wrote down their positions as he showed them to me, and I wrote down their months as they were'

He then has the idea of the calendar explained to him-

'And if five years are added together the sun has an overplus of thirty days, and all the days which accrue to it for one of those five years, when they are full, amount to 364 days. '

Once Enoch has been taught about the movements through the portals, and the calendar he is then taught how each portal is also a doorway to forces which may represent the times of year associated with those portals-

'Through four of these (portals) come winds of blessing and prosperity, and from those eight come hurtful winds'

Enoch rounds things up by declaring he has been taught all there is to know-

' I have shown thee everything, and the law of all the stars of the heaven is completed. And he showed me all the laws of these for every day, and for every season of bearing rule, and for every year, and for its going forth, and for the order prescribed to it every month and every week....Such is the picture and sketch of every luminary which Uriel the archangel, who is their leader, showed unto me.....the angel Uriel answered and said to me: 'Behold, I have shown thee everything, Enoch, and I have revealed everything to thee that thou shouldst see this sun and this moon, and the leaders of the stars of the heaven and all those who turn them, their tasks and times and departures.'

Once all is taught and some visions are had that seem unrelated to astronomy Enoch is returned home again to teach is knowledge to his children- and is given precisely one year to do so before the angels come back to permanently take Enoch out of the world to join God.


So whats going on then? Whats this place he goes to? What are the portals and gates through which he observes the movements of the sun, moon, planets and stars?

Well for me its pretty clearly a description of what you see if you stand in the middle of a stone circle- the gaps between the stones are the portals and windows and any two sets of stones are gates.
The manner in which Enoch is instructed about the movements, how the sun over time will rise in one gap between stones (portal) but end up doing so in another, the fact timing is important in tracking and measuring movements across the space (or portal) between stones. It all fits.
Even the wall of fire could plausible be a quartz wall lit by either natural light or by firelight- either way the result is impressive.

So where was he? Well he was being taught astronomy in what seems to be a center for astronomy, complete with observational means to do so- its stone circle knowledge.
There is only one contender early enough to fit with the Enoch time frame and which had the knowledge he records being taught- he had to be in Orkney and the Ness of Brodgar. It not only has the knowledge, the circles to teach him but it even has a 'wall of fire' in the Maes Howe wall of quartz that lights up when struck by sun, moon or the light of Venus, and still dopes to this day. And most importantly it matches the approximate latitude the day lengths indicate he says he was at.

Everything necessary for the basic story to be true- existing communication and trade routes between Europe and Scotland and Europe and the middle -east, the latitude  indicated, the passing of astronomical knowledge form north to south, is present and correct.
I also find it interesting that upon returning home Enoch is given precisely 1 year to teach his offspring what he has been taught. Why 1 year? Well that's the exact amount of time it takes to set up a working stone circle, as you place out the stones according to the shadow direction over the course of a year.

Which leads me on to dating these events- if what is recorded is in broad outline true- some people from the mid-east went to Orkney learned about stone circles then it makes sense that there should be stone circles in the mid-east to prove it- and there are, and they start appearing from about the mid-3000bc. By which time the Ness of Brodgar, its temple and the Maes Howe mound were all established.

I propose therefore that Enoch is representative of a group of people rather than an individual- the Watchers in this case are in fact Orkadians, the place he is taken is the Ness of Brodgar and Maes Howe, the portals and the gates through which he observes and records the movements of the heavenly bodies are stone circles and that this group brought this knowledge back with them to Egypt where they built the first stone circles there.

And that's the interesting tale of Enoch- and my theory to accompany it! }}}

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by halfwise on Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:24 pm

Very interesting, Petty! Has no one else made these connections that you know of? And are the shining faces the pale skin of northerners?

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:26 pm

{{{Yes, there is a book called 'Uriel's Machine' that links stone circles with the book of Enoch, but its scope is much broader than doing that and into less reliable in my view areas of research. And is not so much concerned with how information moved and to what purpose. They try to tie everything and the Watchers to a great pre-flood civilisation and to Masonry and to a comet strike. I just dont see the need for one at this point.
But like many others such as Hancock and Von Daniken- whilst I might not buy their explanations, and often their evidence is fudged or non-existent in Danikens case they do often along the way raise genuine questions or make interesting connections. So whilst the theories put forward behind Uriels Machine have been knocked down by experts- their dating of grooveware, the dating for the comet impacts and the dates and usage of stone chambers in England are all at odds with academia and have been rightly called for such and named as pseudo-science- but no one has ever denounced as far as I know the connection between what is described in Enoch and a stone circle. It seems to me science has thrown the baby out with the bath water here.
I had already connected Enoch to circles before I read it just because it sounds so much like it- but the working out of times, explanations for how circles work ect are form that book- where it is very good is on the practical technical side. You can literally go out in your garden and build your own circles following the simple instructions and if you've ever morning of a year to dedicate to the task.}}

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by David H on Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:59 pm

Ah, Orkney! It was a goal of mine when I was hitchhiking. I missed the last ferry from Thurso on Saturday by 5 minutes Mad ). Ended up riding in the back of a chicken truck up to Tongue (which also has many strange neolithic mounds covering many acres, but nothing to compare to Orkney and The Ring of Brodgar!)

I'll have to read more on Enoch when I get a chance. An ancient calendar site would make sense.

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by David H on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:04 pm

Also, not to keep harping on it, but Orkney would be a wonderful maritime hub! Nod

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:13 pm

are the shining faces the pale skin of northerners?- Halfy

{{All I can say if you stick a modern Scot in modern day Iraq we will quickly get very sweaty and very shiny faced!
'Personally I think 'Watchers' is a substitute in a lot of tales for when they dont have the correct info or understanding.
So in Enoch the Orkadian traders or whatever they were become Watchers because by the time its set down everyone has forgotten all about the original people, no one understands all that portal stuff any more so it must be supernatural so it must be Watchers.
Likewise in Sodom and Gomorrah their appearance explains a natural disaster as an act of God with Watchers or angels present to give that supernatural credibility required.


Dave- incredibly I have never been myself though I am planning to go- ideally once the excavations are more fully completed and there is more public access to the sites.

But I like to think that Enoch stood and was instructed in the centre of the great circle of Brodgar and that the oldest stone circle we have in the middle-east, the one in Egypt is the very one he built upon his return home based on what he had been taught.


Regards maritime hub trhe land would be different- there was a lot more of it for a start and the east coast of Scotland was physically still attached to mainland Europe via the Doggerland. The west coast however is not only an ancient seaway but there are hundreds of islands and evidence people were sailing those waters as far back as there were people, with coracle type vessels in use at the very least from the beginning. I dont know about you but I find it hard to believe that a people who lived on waterways and the sea and used it for their main sustenance, and who were sailing coracles and log boats in 6000bc, had not improved their skills and techniques by say 4000bc }}}

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by halfwise on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:30 pm

Regards maritime hub trhe land would be different- there was a lot more of it for a start and the east coast of Scotland was physically still attached to mainland Europe via the Doggerland.

Really? Only a few thousand years ago? I'd think the English channel would be a better candidate.

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:04 pm

{{The last of Doggerland disappeared under the waves about 5000bc. But for a long time the north sea was shallow along the coasts, in many places no more than a metre deep until finally it grew and grew.
But people definitively lived there-

'peat was found to contain a barbed antler point, possibly used as a harpoon or fish spear, 220 millimetres (8.5 in) long, which dated from between 4,000 and 10,000 BC when the area was tundra'

'we have been able to re-create what this lost land looked like.... We have now been able to model its flora and fauna, build up a picture of the ancient people that lived there and begin to understand some of the dramatic events that subsequently changed the land, including the sea rising and a devastating tsunami.'- from a paper from the universities of St Andrews, Dundee and Aberdeen.

There are a lot of secrets under there- Skara Brae for example the neolithic village is right on the coast and its suspected much of the original site is long since lost to the sea.

And given the find in England that I mentioned previously where they found advanced (for the time period) boat building at an underwater site we have probably lost a lot of valuable information to the sea. }}}

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by azriel on Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:03 pm



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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by azriel on Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:04 pm



Dragon Bridge at Saint Ursanne.

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by azriel on Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:06 pm



Highest lighthouse in Iceland

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:28 am

{{{Bugger that! No }}}

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by David H on Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:54 am

Just think about the Icelanders building it... affraid
Anchor the ship well off the reef, row in through the surf with a load of bricks, fend off the rocks as you load them into the basket on a rope, wait for the poor bastard on top to haul them up, repeat. Suspect

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by azriel on Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:26 pm



A coat sale in Copenhagen, &, judging by that picture, it was a long time ago Smile

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azriel
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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by malickfan on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:12 pm

azriel wrote:

A coat sale in Copenhagen, &, judging by that picture, it was a long time ago Smile

You just know the person on the bike was thinking about getting one of the coats on the top rack Laughing

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The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)

Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it  Suspect


I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by halfwise on Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:03 am

really brings home how much you need a coat in Copenhagen.

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by azriel on Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:33 pm

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sammezzano+castle&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj32cbG1tLWAhVEFMAKHYbWC9gQ_AUICigB&biw=1024&bih=618

I thought it was easier to show the whole Google page on this. Amazing place this castle. Sammezzano Castle, Italy.

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:55 am

Blimey! I didn't know there was Moorish architecture in Italy!

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by azriel on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:22 am

Its a beautiful place to see, all that detail & work gone into it. So much Moorish artifacts, & architecture surviving in lots of places. They really did exert themselves & probably influenced Art & Design to this day, more so than other styles of life I think.

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Re: Oddities, curiousities and strangness in history [2]

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:05 pm

I looked into it - that castle is actually retro-Moorish, built in the 19th century. The Moors seem to to have occupied themselves mainly in Sicily, but only had a foothold there for a bit over a century.

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