Religous debates and questions [2]

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Fri May 15, 2015 5:56 pm

I've just read the gospels of both Judas and Philip, and I can now definitively say that I know both less and more than I did before. Shocked

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Sat May 16, 2015 3:21 pm

Crucifixion references from a selection of 2nd century/non-canonical texts (~100-150CE);

Didache - none
First Epistle of Clement - none
Secret Book of James (false author) - earthly crucifixion (speaking to a doubtful audience)
Titus (false author) - none
2 Timothy (false author) - none
2 Peter (false author) - none
Apocalypse of Peter - ?
Gospel of the Nazaraeans - earthly crucifixion
Second Epistle of Clement (false author) - none
The Preaching of Peter - ?
Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans (complete forgery)
The shepard of hermas - none
Epistle of Barnabas (false author) - earthly crucifixion

---
Didache (~100 CE).

none (yet includes references from both the traditional gospels and the epistles)

---
First Epistle of Clement (~90 CE)

none (yet includes references the traditional gospels)

---
Secret Book of James (100-150 CE)

earthly crucifixion (but speaking to a doubtful audience) -

"... Scorn death, therefore, and take thought for life! Remember my cross and my death, and you will live!" But I answered and said to him, "Lord, do not mention to us the cross and death, for they are far from you." The Lord answered and said, "Verily, I say unto you, none will be saved unless they believe in my cross. But those who have believed in my cross, theirs is the kingdom of God..."
...
"Since I have already been glorified in this fashion, why do you hold me back in my eagerness to go? For after the labor, you have compelled me to stay with you another eighteen days for the sake of the parables. It was enough for some <to listen> to the teaching and understand 'The Shepherds' and 'The Seed' and 'The Building' and 'The Lamps of the Virgins' and 'The Wage of the Workmen' and the 'Didrachmae' and 'The Woman.'"
...
For I came down to dwell with you, so that you in turn might dwell with me. And, finding your houses unceiled, I have made my abode in the houses that could receive me at the time of my descent."
...
Verily, I say unto you, had I been sent to those who listen to me, and had I spoken with them, I would never have come down to earth.

---
Titus (100-150 CE)

none (non-specific saviour Christ)

---
2 Timothy (100-150 CE)

none (non-specific saviour Christ)

note earthly references;
2 Timothy 2:8 - "Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, of the seed of David, according to my gospel"
2 Timothy 4:11 - "Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee; for he is useful to me for ministering."

---
2 Peter (100-150 CE)

none

(authenticity issue; author passed ~60CE:)
1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:"

(doubt concerning embellishment of gospels accounts:)
1:16-1:20 - "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: and this voice we ourselves heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount. And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit."

(classification of Pauline epistles as scripture:)
even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; 3:16as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

---
Apocalypse of Peter [Akhmim fragment] (100-150CE)

? - NB I havn't included the reference from the greater abeit seemingly forge happy Ethiopian version of the text; but you might like to try reading this yourself

---
Gospel of the Nazaraeans

yes - fragments surviving only (apparently it includes references to Luke 23:34; i.e. crucifixion)

----
Second Epistle of Clement (forgery)

none (includes both references from the traditional gospels and the epistles but no references to crucifixion or execution)

example of lack of execution/crucifixion references;
2 Clem 20:5 To the only God invisible, the Father of truth, who sent forth unto us the Savior and Prince of immortality, through whom also He made manifest unto us the truth and the heavenly life, to Him be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Note I have found a Gospel of Thomas reference embedded here (very interesting);
2 Clem 12:2: For the Lord Himself, being asked by a certain person when his kingdom would come, said, When the two shall be one, and the outside as the inside, and the male with the female, neither male or female.
NB Gospel of Thomas (22): Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom." They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

---
The Preaching of Peter

Translation available? (fragments only?)

---
Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans

N/A - obvious forgery/synthesis of existing Pauline epistles

---
The shepard of hermas (100-160 CE)
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

none

symbolic - 2[10]:1 "What did they suffer?" say I. "Listen," saith she. "Stripes, imprisonments, great tribulations, crosses, wild beasts, for the Name's sake.

---
Epistle of Barnabas (100-150 CE?)

earthly crucifixion -  Barnabas 5:7-9: that at the same time He might redeem the promise made to the fathers, and by preparing the new people for Himself might show, while He was on earth, that having brought about the resurrection He will Himself exercise judgment. Yea and further, He preached teaching Israel  and performing so many wonders and miracles, and He loved him exceedingly. And when He chose His own apostles who were to proclaim His Gospel, who that He might show that He came not to call the righteous but sinners were sinners above every sin, then He manifested Himself to be the Son of God.

earthly crucifixion - Barnabas 5:12-14: To this end therefore He endured. For God saith of the wounds of His flesh that they came from them; When they shall smite their own shepherd, then shall the sheep of the flock be lost. But He Himself desired so to suffer; for it was necessary for Him to suffer on a tree. For he that prophesied said concerning Him, Spare My soul form the sword; and, Pierce My flesh with nails, for the congregations of evil-doers have risen up against Me. And again He saith; Behold I have given My back to stripes, and My cheeks to smitings, and My face did I set as a hard rock.

(context only) Barnabas 5:6: Understand ye. The prophets, receiving grace from Him, prophesied concerning Him. But He Himself endured that He might destroy death and show forth the resurrection of the dead, for that He must needs be manifested in the flesh;
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 16, 2015 3:37 pm

I havent been commenting much on this stuff, mainly becuase the research required to do so I don't have time for right now sadly, but just to say good stuff everyone, I am reading along in rapt interest. Keep at it folks. Thumbs Up

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by halfwise on Sat May 16, 2015 3:54 pm

Clement had reference to the original gospels? That seems to contradict what Carrier claims.

Most of these seem to fall in the 100-150 CE, so can't really see a firm progression. But it's interesting that the earliest sources (Clement and Didache) don't mention crucifixion. Of course, we know the epistles do, but never go into the detail seen in later writings.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Sat May 16, 2015 5:15 pm

It "includes references [from]" the traditional accounts; just what I mentioned earlier; "Sayings attributed to Jesus (effectively Luke 6:37-38/Matthew 6:14,7:1, Mark 9:42)". These may have a common source of course.
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Bluebottle on Sat May 16, 2015 9:30 pm

I also find this discussion very interesting, but just to interject. Isn't the general scientific convention that Jesus was an actual, as in real life, person? And rather than discuss whether the crucifiction actually happened, meaning he was or not, couldn't one just as well discuss it in the context of a possible embelishment of his story?

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Sat May 16, 2015 10:38 pm

Bluebottle wrote:I also find this discussion very interesting, but just to interject. Isn't the general scientific convention that Jesus was an actual, as in real life, person? And rather than discuss whether the crucifiction actually happened, meaning he was or not, couldn't one just as well discuss it in the context of a possible embelishment of his story?

No Blue, I'd say that in general, Science knows better than to butt in on such things without data to back itself up, and the data (and lack of data) is what we're looking at here. Mostly. This is Forumshire after all! Smile

Edit: But to the second part of your question, if there were a historical Jesus and crucifixion were an embellishment of the history, wouldn't it be interesting to understand the who's, when's, where's and why's of adding something that is now so central to the story? That's the textual archaeology that Richard's digging into now, and I find it fascinating! Nod

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by halfwise on Sat May 16, 2015 10:46 pm

What started the discussion is Richard Carrier's thesis that the 'scientific' (really should say archeological) convention is wrong; that Jesus as a man never existed. In which case the crucifixion is automatically an embellishment of history.

I'd have to say that the evidence of his actual existence is almost the same as the evidence of his crucifixion. Both largely from the same sources, both largely historically unlikely as reported. I don't think you make him any more likely by embracing the theory that he wasn't in fact crucified...lots of people were, just not in the way reported by the gospels. I'm far too busy for the next two weeks to dig up the list of historical inconsistencies, but both his reported life and crucifixion are filled with them.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Sat May 16, 2015 10:56 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I havent been commenting much on this stuff, mainly becuase the research required to do so I don't have time for right now sadly, but just to say good stuff everyone, I am reading along in rapt interest. Keep at it folks.  Thumbs Up

Still, if you've got a few minutes Petty, I'd suggest browsing through the Gospel of Philip. Here's a nice side-by-side double translation:
http://gospelofthomas.nazirene.org/philip.htm

If you read it with an open mind, I think you'll find some of it resonates with some of your shamanistic readings. That's part of the Gnostic world view I'm trying to get my head around. I'd be interested in your thoughts if you get a chance.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 16, 2015 11:48 pm

Just had very quick glance at the opening of that David- looks very interersting. Thanks for the link.

One thing which immediately struck is the use of 'dead' and 'alive' the 'dead' and the 'living'.

It was common (and in fact still is) in mystery schools to use these terms to refer to members and non members of their organisations.
Light and dark are also often used for the same means.
So to be 'alive' is to be an initiate and to be one of the 'dead' is to ignorant of the mysteries.
There is good reason to think that (assuming an actual Jesus of course) that the accounts of the raising of Lazarus from the 'dead' falls into this category.
He was part of Jesus 'mystery school' and was cast out and so was dead to them, and then Jesus retored him to his place within the group, so bringing him back to life.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Sun May 17, 2015 12:02 am

Interesting. I think the modern parallel in Christianity is being "born again", all having been born once in the body, but only the few haveing the second birth in the Spirit, implying being alive in a way that others aren't.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun May 17, 2015 12:40 am

Modern Christiiantiy actually uses both refrences- life an death and light and dark- as in the phrase "born again into the light of Christ"

You will find the two terms, 'born again' and 'light of Christ' used a lot in modern Christianity, especially by Baptists for some reason.
But its meaning is unchanged- those in the light or who are alive again in some fashion are part of the group and those who are in the dark or among the dead are not.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Thu May 21, 2015 8:30 am

I have gone through the disputed Pauline epistles (Ephesians and Colossians). Note the first manuscripts thereof containing the following crucifixion references are dated the 6th century (082 / H:015), which is around the time at which the first existent (available) full copies of the texts were written. Ephesians reads like something written by Paul, and my intuition is that it was written by Paul (but I haven't looked into the arguments for/against this). It is interesting to note these texts being disputed contain some of the most contemporarily controversial NT material (where Colossians 3:18-25,4:1 is very similar to Ephesians 5:21-23,6:1-9; see also 1 Peter 3:1-7). Likewise, it is interesting to note that Colossians references the traditional gospel authors Mark/Luke, which occurs also in the suspected forgery 2 Timothy (4:11). Furthermore, Colossians references a Pauline epistle to the Laodiceans, of which one has been referred to as a forgery in the 7th century Muratorian fragment (believed to have been written 170-400CE; The Marcionist Epistle to the Laodiceans), and another identified as a forgery in the 6th century Fulda manuscript (Latin Vulgate Epistle to the Laodicean). Again, I haven't looked into the arguments for/against the authenticity of Colossians.

I have also been through the 1st century non-Pauline epistles (1 Peter, Jude, James, 1 John-3 John, Hebrews). The Pauline epistles and 1st century non-Pauline epistles do not quote anything as having been said by Jesus (for example traditional gospel accounts), just the OT. I found a reference to a specific teaching of Christ in 2 John however.

---
Ephesians:

symbolic crucifixion? Ephesians 2:16: "and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility."

earthly Christ? - Ephesians 4:8-10: "Therefore it is said, 'When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.' (In saying, 'He ascended', what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth/the depths of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)". The second interpretation ("the depths of the earth") does not of itself imply an earthly existence and concords with the apostle's creed; "He descended to the dead". According to Ellicott; "the form and usage of the phrase itself seem to point to [this] meaning, which is held by almost all ancient interpreters and most moderns".

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/4-9.htm

---
Colossians:

symbolic crucifixion? - Colossians 1:20: "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

symbolic crucifixion? - Colossians 2:14: "having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross."

earthly crucifixion - Colossians 2:15: "And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." {justification; "he made a public spectacle of them"}

earthly Christ? - Colossians 4:10-11: "My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.) Jesus, who is called Justus, also sends greetings. These are the only Jews among my co-workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me."

earthly Christ? - Colossians 4:14: "Our dear friend Luke, the doctor, and Demas send greetings."

---

1 Peter (authenticity disputed; ~80CE):

passion - 1 Peter 1:2 "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance."
passion - 1 Peter 1:19 "but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect"

earthly Christ - 1 Peter 1:8: "Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy"

'imaginary' Christ - 1 Peter 1:12: "It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven."

earthly crucifixion - 1 Peter 2:21-25: "To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 'He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.' When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

no obvious resurrection of the body - 1 Peter 3:18-19: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits\u2014 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. I

earthly Christ - 1 Peter 4:6: "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

earthly Christ - 1 Peter 5:13: "She who is in Babylon [Rome?], chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark."
the literal interpretation 'son' appears to contradict ancestry of Mark according to Acts/Colossians, but there is no evidence that 'son' was intended to mean spiritual use.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/5-13.htm

---
Jude (70-80CE):

none

---
James (50-100CE):

none - note James contains a large number of teachings not attributed to Jesus but are in the traditional gospels (e.g. 4:6, 4:11-12, 4:13-17, 5:1-6, 5:12).

---
1 John (95-110CE):

earthly Christ - 1 John 1:1-2: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched\u2014this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

earthly Christ - 1 John 4:2: This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God

earthly Christ - 1 John 5:6-9: This is the one who came by water and blood\u2014Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept human testimony, but God\u2019s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.

note 1 John contains a teaching not attributed to Jesus but present in the traditional gospels (2:9, 4:7-21).

---
2 John (95-110+CE):

earthly Christ - 2 John 1:5-6: "4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love."
- Note the command to love thy neighbour is (now) being presented as a command from Jesus

---
3 John (95-110+CE):

none

note 3 John contains a teaching not attributed to Jesus but present in the traditional gospels (1:9).

---
Hebrews (~80CE):

earthly Christ - lots of references;

earthly Christ - Hebrews 1:1-2: "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."    

earthly Christ - Hebrews 2:11: "Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters."

earthly Christ/crucifixion - Hebrews 2:14-15: "Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death\u2014that is, the devil\u2014 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death."

earthly Christ - Hebrews 2:18: "Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."

earthly Christ - Hebrews 4:2: "For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed."
- Note the gospel here is interpreted as something not specifically proclaimed in the NT by the Christ, but in the OT also.

earthly Christ - Hebrews 4:15: "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet he did not sin"

earthly Christ/crucifixion - Hebrews 6:6: "To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

earthly Christ - Hebrews 7:14: "For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests."

earthly Christ - Hebrews 10:5: "Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, 'Here I am; it is written about me in the scroll. I have come to do your will, my God.
   
earthly Christ/crucifixion - Hebrews 12:2: "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."
   
earthly Christ/crucifixion - Hebrews 12:12: "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore."
   
note Hebrews contains a teaching not attributed to Jesus but present in the traditional gospels (6:7).
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Sat May 23, 2015 8:57 am

Summary table (part 1);
[note to view all columns, zoom out with your browser]


Bookauthordate (conservative) [~wikipedia]earliest manuscript (fragment) [http://bibletranslation. ws/manu.html]earthly Christ references (liberal)referencescrucifixion references (liberal) [arguably implies earthly crucifixion]referencestraditional gospel teaching (not attributed to Jesus)referencessymbolic crucifixion referencesreferencesnon-specific cross of Christ references (symbolic/astral crucifixion or earthly crucifixion)referencesnotesreferences
Traditional Gospel Accounts
MatthewMatthew? (authenticity disputed)70-110CE300>1many>1many>1
MarkMark? (authenticity disputed)70-80CE300>1many>1many>1
LukeLuke? (authenticity disputed)80-110CE200>1many>1many>1
JohnJohn? (authenticity disputed)90-100CE200 (125)>1many>1many>1
ActsLuke? (authenticity disputed)80-110CE400 (200)>1many4+2:23 , 5:30, 10:39, 13:29>1?
Pauline Epistles
RomansPaul50-60CE2000none0
1 CorinthiansPaul50-60CE2004 (5)9:1, 9:14, 11:23-25, 15:9, 2:8 - not in P46 or later greek manuscripts0 (4)1:13, 1:23, 2:2, 2:8; none in P4629:14, 11:23-2521:17, 1:18
2 CorinthiansPaul50-60CE20000 (1)13:4 - not in P460
GalatiansPaul50-60CE2003 (4)1:13, 1:16, 2:7, 3:1 - not in P461 (2)3:1 - not in P46, 6:17032:20, 5:24, 6:1435:11, 6:12, 6:14
EphesiansPaul? (authenticity disputed)60-80CE500 (200)0 (1)(4:8-10? - note preferred translation is “depths of the earth” not “lower earthly regions”)0012:16
PhilippiansPaul50-60CE2000 (1)(2:8?)002 (1)2:8?, 3:18
ColossiansPaul? (authenticity disputed)50-100CE?5001 (2)4:10-11, 4:14 (not in P46)1 (3)1:20?, 2:14?, 2:1502 (0)1:20?, 2:14?
1 ThessaloniansPaul50-60CE200012:14 - missing P46 folio0


Last edited by richardbrucebaxter on Sun May 24, 2015 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Sat May 23, 2015 8:59 am

Summary table (part 2);


Bookauthordate (conservative) [~wikipedia]earliest manuscript (fragment) [http://bibletranslation. ws/manu.html]earthly Christ references (liberal)referencescrucifixion references (liberal) [arguably implies earthly crucifixion]referencestraditional gospel teaching (not attributed to Jesus)referencessymbolic crucifixion referencesreferencesnon-specific cross of Christ references (symbolic/astral crucifixion or earthly crucifixion)referencesnotesreferences
1st/2nd Century Non-Pauline Epistles
2 Thessalonians? (not authentic/pseudepigraphical?)80-115CE400000
1 Timothy? (not authentic/pseudepigraphical?)80-150CE40021:15, 3:1616:130against traditional gospel accounts (against “devotion to endless genealogies”)1:3
2 Timothy? (not authentic/pseudepigraphical?)80-150CE40022:8, 4:1100teaching is explicitly equated with OT scripture...3:14-4:4
Titus? (not authentic/pseudepigraphical?)100-150CE(200)000
PhilemonPaul50-60CE2000no0
Hebrews?~80CE2009 (11)1:1-2, 2:11, 2:14-15, 2:18, 4:2, 4:15, 6:6, 7:14, 10:5 (not in P46), 12:2, 12:12 (not in P46)2 (3)2:14-15, 6:6, 12:2, 12:12 (not in P46)0 (1)6:7gospel is explicitly equated with OT scripture...4:2
James? (not authentic?)50-100CE400 (200)000 (5)4:6, 4:11-12, 4:13-17, 5:1-6, 5:12
1 Peter? (not authentic?)~80CE41:8, 2:21-25, 4:6, 5:1312:21-250no bodily resurrection of Christ3:18-19
2 Peter? (not authentic/pseudepigraphical?)100-150CE300000doubt concerning embellishment of gospels accounts1:16-1:20
1 John? (not authentic?)95-110(300)2 (3)1:1-2, 4:2 (not present in 0245), 5:6-900 (1)2:9/4:7-21
2 John? (not authentic?)95-110+?11:5-6011:5-6
3 John? (not authentic?)95-110+?000 (1)1:9
Jude?70-80CE?000
Revelations? (not authentic)80-100CE?111:8111:80
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Sat May 23, 2015 9:00 am

Summary table (part 3);


Bookauthordate (conservative) [~wikipedia]earliest manuscript (fragment) [http://bibletranslation. ws/manu.html]earthly Christ references (liberal)referencescrucifixion references (liberal) [arguably implies earthly crucifixion]referencestraditional gospel teaching (not attributed to Jesus)referencessymbolic crucifixion referencesreferencesnon-specific cross of Christ references (symbolic/astral crucifixion or earthly crucifixion)referencesnotesreferences
1st Century Non-canonical texts?
Didache?~[50-]100CE?1+“servant” references00 (6)effectively Mark 12:30-31, Matthew 5:43-48, Matthew 5:38-42, ~Matthew 5:25-48, Matthew 5:5, ~Matthew 25:1-12
The First Epistle of Clement to the CorinthiansClement?~90-100CE?3effectively Luke 6:37-38/Matthew 6:14,7:1, Mark 9:4203effectively Luke 6:37-38/Matthew 6:14,7:1, Mark 9:42
2nd Century Non-canonical texts?
Secret Book of James100-150CE?41?Gnostic?
Apocalypse of Peter100-150CE?0 (1)Akhmim fragment0 (1)Akhmim fragment?
Gospel of the Nazaraeans 100-200CE?apparently it includes references to Luke 23:34; i.e. crucifixionapparently it includes references to Luke 23:34; i.e. crucifixion?
Second Epistle of Clement? (not authentic/forgery)100-150CE?00?example of lack of execution/crucifixion references + Gospel of Thomas (v22) reference embedded2 Clem 20:5 + 2 Clem 12:2
The Preaching of Petertranslation available?????
The Shepard of Hermas100-160CE?00?12[10]:1
Epistle of Barnabas 100-150CE??25:7-9, 5:12-1415:12-14?
Gnostic texts??
Gospel of ThomasGnostic?0 (100)“Jesus said...” x1000?1v55 (effectively Luke 14:26/Matthew 16:24)
Gospel of JudasGnostic?2two major references to betrayal of Jesus by Judas2two major references to betrayal of Jesus by Judas?
Gospel of PhilipGnostic?2rising before dying + construction of the cross2rising before dying + construction of the cross?1
Gospel of MaryGnostic (50% available)?00?
Gospel of the Lord by MarcionGnostic?1+includes Luke 22:1-24:471+includes Luke 22:1-24:47?
Gospel of TruthGnostic?22
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Sun May 24, 2015 5:10 pm

That sure makes Mathew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts stand apart from everything else, doesn't it? Shocked

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun May 24, 2015 6:51 pm

That very useful and informative Richard- did you come up with that yourself? I like it.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Orwell on Sun May 24, 2015 10:42 pm

I thought this thread was all about discussing supernature with supernaturalists (unanswerable questions about the existence or non-existence of same), but it seems there is informed conversation going on. Who would have thought it? Only had a quick look at your work, Richie, but see I must have a more in depth look at your work when I get time. Coud not help wondering if you're a bit Spong-like about Christianity; actually appears you're ready to examine New Testament history with some genuine text study going on. I'm with Petty - I like it. Kissing

NB I almost bought a Greek-English edition of the New Testament at a second hand bookshop yesterday to add to my library of Christian texts and commentaries -- now I'm thinking I might go ahead and buy it. Don't read Greek, but you can look for consistencies in translations of words and names to some degree, and might be worth the journey. Do you know New Testament Greek?  If so, I might have some questions on translation for you. Very Happy

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by halfwise on Tue May 26, 2015 1:51 pm

Impressive work, RB!

Orwell - I would expect the translation to be highly context dependent. Camels and eyes of needles and all that.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by chris63 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:14 am


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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:53 am

I don't know Greek and can't help with this (but I don't think fine needle points can further any claims here; which can be easily lost between translations). I haven't encountered Spong for a very long time but I do remember some of his theses. I have no problems with supernatural activity in principle, though I don't think this is the way religion works. Nor do I have anything against blood sacrifice; I don't think it is barbaric, but fundamentally human. Again, not that I see religion operating through transactions. The way I see a lot of this religious analysis (although being extremely interesting from a historical point of view) is that it is missing the point. The question we are ultimately being asked here (and by contemplative religion more generally) is, will you follow me? Is this the kind of life we are designed for?  

I think truth is in everything; it is in history, in culture, in stories, in a cup of water. Furthermore, if there was any certainty involved then there would be no faith - which is a virtue in itself; leaving supernatural claims aside, which by definition can never be demonstrated using natural science and therefore historical inference. If there is a God, then there is one thing we can know about them for certain; that they sure aren't going out of their way to say so.

The Witch shook her head. "I see," she said, "that we should do no better with your lion, as you call it, than we did with your sun. You have seen lamps, and so you imagined a bigger and better lamp and called it the sun. You've seen cats, and now you want a bigger and better cat, and it's to be called a lion. Well, 'tis a pretty make-believe, though, to say truth, it would suit you all better if you were younger."
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:12 pm

Petty was just talking about St Andrew's Cross In the Freedom thread.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about Andrew's cruxifixion:

"Andrew is said to have been martyred by crucifixion at the city of Patras (Patræ) in Achaea, on the northern coast of the Peloponnese. Early texts, such as the Acts of Andrew known to Gregory of Tours, describe Andrew as bound, not nailed, to a Latin cross of the kind on which Jesus is said to have been crucified; yet a tradition developed that Andrew had been crucified on a cross of the form called Crux decussata (X-shaped cross, or "saltire"), now commonly known as a "Saint Andrew's Cross" — supposedly at his own request, as he deemed himself unworthy to be crucified on the same type of cross as Jesus had been. "
The familiar iconography of his martyrdom, showing the apostle bound to an X-shaped cross, does not seem to have been standardized before the later Middle Ages," Judith Calvert concluded after re-examining the materials studied by Louis Réau"


Several things interesting here. Oengus who supposedly had the vision of the Saltire is reported to have died in AD 761, well before the Later Middle Ages.  The story of Andrew asking for the favor of being crucified on an unusual cross because he was unworthy to be crucified normally is almost identical to the folklore around St Peter's upside down crucifixion (their tormentors sure seem to be obliging in these things!) And then there's what Wikipedia says about the cult of St Andrew in the Oengus article....

The story of the foundation of St Andrews, originally Cennrígmonaid, is not contemporary and may contain many inventions. The Irish annals report the death of "Tuathalán, abbot of Cinrigh Móna", in 747, making it certain that St Andrews had been founded before that date, probably by Óengus or by Nechtan son of Der-Ilei.[36] It is generally presumed that the St Andrews Sarcophagus was executed at the command of Óengus.[37] Later generations may have conflated this king Óengus with the 9th century king of the same name.[38] The choice of David as a model is, as Alex Woolf notes, an appropriate one: David too was an usurper.[39]

The cult of Saint Andrew may have come to Pictland from Northumbria, as had the cult of Saint Peter which had been favoured by Nechtan, and in particular from the monastery at Hexham which was dedicated to Saint Andrew. This apparent connection with the Northumbrian church may have left a written record. Óengus, like his successors and possible kinsmen Caustantín and Eógan, is recorded prominently in the Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmensis, a list of some 3000 benefactors for whom prayers were said in religious institutions connected with Durham

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:26 pm

Scotland (and Ireland) were early adopters of Christianity, about 400AD.

This has in part been put down to two things- the old Celtic colleges seem to have converted wholesale, and the second related reason is the idea that the old Celtic traditions of death and rebirth fitted rather neatly into an interpretation of the Christian story and resurrection, so it wasn't exactly a major shift in hat they believed at fundamental levels. And the mix led to a very distinctive branch of early Christianity, the Celtic Church.

But like the saltire, when it comes to our early history there is often a fog between history and legend.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by halfwise on Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:50 am

Bravo on all except the last line.

---------------
Pope draft encyclical calls for swift action on climate change
By Philip Pullella
Reuters

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The world could see the destruction of entire ecosystems this century without urgent action on climate change, Pope Francis says in a draft of his keenly awaited encyclical on the environment.

In the Italian version of the 192-page document, posted on Monday by the weekly magazine l'Espresso, the pope again backs scientists who say global warming is mostly man-made and that developed countries have a particular responsibility to stem a trend that will hurt the poor the most.

That position has been contested by conservatives, particularly in the United States, who have excoriated the first pontiff from Latin America for deploying scientific arguments.

The Vatican condemned the leak but did not deny the document's authenticity. It later informed veteran journalist Sandro Magister that his media credentials within the Holy See were being suspended indefinitely because the leak had caused "great turmoil".

A spokesman said the final version would remain under embargo until its scheduled release on Thursday.

Still, Italy's major newspapers published pages of excerpts in their Tuesday editions.

"If the current trend continues, this century could see unheard-of climate change and an unprecedented destruction of ecosystems, with grave consequences for all of us," Francis writes, according to the leaked version.

By making environmental protection a moral imperative, Francis' intervention could spur the world's 1.2 billion Catholics to lobby policymakers on ecology issues.

The pope has said he wants the document, called "Laudato Si (Be Praised), On the Care of Our Common Home", to be part of the debate at a major U.N. summit on climate change this year in Paris. He said on Sunday the document was addressed to all people, regardless of religion.

Meanwhile, Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury and spiritual head of the world's 80 million Anglicans, issued a declaration on Tuesday along with representatives from Britain's Catholic, Muslim, Sikh and Jewish communities among others, calling for urgent action to tackle climate change.

"We are faced with a huge challenge. But we are hopeful that the necessary changes can be made – for the sake of all who share this world today - and those who will share it tomorrow," their joint declaration said.

According to the leaked excerpts from the pope's six-chapter document, destined to become a signature document of his papacy, Francis speaks of "symptoms of a breaking point caused by the great speed of change and degradation".

It was not clear how advanced in the writing process the leaked document was nor how similar it would be to the final version. The leaked document bore the pope's signature in Latin.

"IMMENSE GARBAGE DUMP"

It confirmed what people familiar with the final version told Reuters last week about how the document addresses climate change and the man-made causes of global warming.

"The Earth, our home, increasingly seems to be transforming itself into an immense garbage dump," the pope writes.

He confronts climate change deniers head-on, saying there is a "very consistent scientific consensus that we are experiencing a worrying warming of the climactic system".

While acknowledging there are other factors, he says numerous studies have shown that global warming is caused by greenhouse gases emitted mainly because of human activities.

The encyclical urges rich nations to re-examine their "throw-away" lifestyle, an appeal Francis has made often since his election in 2013.

"Enormous consumption in some rich countries has repercussions in some of the poorest places on Earth," he says, according to the leaked draft.

The pope calls for a reduction in carbon emissions, an increase in policies that favor renewable energy and warns of the long-term effects of continuing to use fossil fuels as the main source of global energy.

He also rejects suggestions that population control would solve the environmental crisis, saying one of the main causes is "extreme consumerism".

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