US General Election 2016

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:18 am

{{{ Going great globally Trump- managed to alienate your allies and inflame your enemies at the same time!! }}

'The prime minister of the The Netherlands - along with his foreign minister - have released a statement condemning Mr Trump's executive order.

Sweden's foreign minister, Margot Wallström, has reportedly summoned the head of the US embassy in Stockholm, David E Lindwall.
Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet says the minister objected to the "sad and frightening" decision the US had taken.

The Arab League - of which Saudi Arabia is a founding member - expressed deep concern on Sunday, saying the restrictions are unjustified.

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan said: "President Trump's ban on refugees and immigrants from certain countries is shameful and cruel"

Boris Johnson says "We will protect the rights and freedoms of UK nationals home and abroad. Divisive and wrong to stigmatise because of nationality."

German Chancellor Angela Merkel told U.S. President Donald Trump that the global fight against terrorism was no excuse for banning refugees or people from Muslim-majority countries from entering the United States, her spokesman said on Sunday....He said the German government regrets the entry travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven Muslim-majority countries, and will review the consequences for German citizens with dual nationalities.
He said Merkel had expressed her concerns to Trump during a telephone call on Saturday and reminded him that the Geneva Conventions require the international community to take in war refugees on humanitarian grounds.

"The US decision to restrict travel for Muslims to the US, even if for a temporary period of three months, is an obvious insult to the Islamic world and in particular to the great nation of Iran," the Foreign Affairs Ministry statement said..."Despite the claims of combating terrorism and keeping American people safe, it will be recorded in history as a big gift to extremists and their supporters."
Iran will take "proportionate legal, consular and political action and ... will take reciprocal measures in order to safeguard the rights of its citizens until the time of the removal of the insulting restrictions of the government of the United States against Iranian nationals."

Iraq’s Foreign Affairs Committee, which met in Baghdad before announcing the decision to seek punishment for the new administration for its actions.....“We ask the Iraqi government to reciprocate to the decision taken by the US administration,” a statement from the panel read. One of the representatives told Reuters, “Iraq is in the frontline of the war of terrorism... and it is unfair that the Iraqis are treated in this way.”
Iraq’s influential religious cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has urged the government to expel all Americans.'

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:29 am

the good news is, people knew he was a nutter so this stuff shouldn't be too much of a shock.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Lancebloke on Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:34 pm

Nothing will come of this unless everyone else is really willing to stand up to what is the US (and by this I obviously mean the administration) being a bully and take the losses.

Theresa May has Brexit to worry about and rejecting the US now is probably tantamount to economic suicide so she has to play her cards right.

The rest of Europe can currently afford to do the right thing but with many big elections coming up... some may end up in the second position as the UK.

We could all do with clubbing together... but that won't happen.
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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:09 pm

Trump will be banning Mancunians from the US next. Rolling Eyes

I keep having dreams about Trump, that's not a good sign is it? No I was on a bus and Trump turned the heating off, and I kept begging him to turn it back on because it was freezing but he refused, so I told him I was getting off the bus even if I landed up in the middle of nowhere in the dark, and when I defied him he got really surprised and angry and started shouting, but I defied him big time. Razz the other dream is nasty cant repeat it. Embarassed theres no escape he follows me in my dreams. Mad

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:12 pm

Just keep reminding yourself he's on the other side of the ocean.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:19 pm

pale but he is in my head. No

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:04 pm

Didn't take Trump long to reach majority disapproval rating.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-smashes-record-getting-171202190.html

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:41 am

in one week Laughing

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by David H on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:04 am

That's got to be one of the shortest honeymoons in history! Shocked
{{you'd think a man who'd been married so many times would know better. Suspect }}

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by David H on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:20 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/30/justice-department-trump-immigration-acting-attorney-general-sally-yates

I can't believe that firing an acting Attorney General without discussion for political reasons is going to win respect from members of the judiciary, whatever their political leanings. Another unforced error. Rolling Eyes

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Eldorion on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:35 am

Firing her in such a public manner (and accompanied by such a hysterically-worded press release) when she was about to be replaced anyway definitely inflames an already tense situation with no obvious benefit for Trump, in addition to being an embarrassment for the country to have the internal dirty laundry of the Cabinet aired for the whole world to see.

That said, I got into an argument on this topic on another forum because I disagreed that Trump's firing of Yates constituted a coup or made him a dictator, but was then accused by some of the less Chicken Little-esque members of that (very liberal) forum of ignoring the context and distracting from the real issue, although I took care to note that I agreed with Yates' stance on the ban. As you guys have probably noticed over the years I tend to be bothered by misinformation and hyperbole from both sides, even when I do agree with one over the other, but I feel kinda bad now and am questioning whether or not my efforts* at promoting greater factual accuracy from the liberal side are actually counter-productive.

But then five minutes later I see the below image on my mom's Facebook feed and I just cannot comprehend how people who are so ready to finger-wag over "fake news" are so ill-equipped for self-reflection. Though I think that's more just basic human psychology than a trait specific to any particular political group. But then again, I'm doing even more finger-wagging myself, so what does that make me?



{{{Also, calling it a "Muslim ban" while simultaneously pointing out a bunch of Muslim-majority countries that are not included on the list is a serious WTF moment for me. And there's been a lot of accusing Trump of basing the list on countries he had business interests in with conspicuously little (no) mention of the fact that the list of countries came from an Obama administration policy, as bungo's recent link pointed out. But on the other hand, I do think that Trump's rhetoric and fearmongering is dangerous. But on the other other hand, I'm not sure how many of the reported Trump-inspired hate crimes actually happened since a number have proven to be hoaxes or misunderstandings (like the Trump/swastika graffiti that was actually trying to claim Trump was a Nazi). But not a lot of people are in the mood to have a nuanced discussion of that so am I just wasting my time or worse, subconsciously trying to feel superior by being "above the fray" somehow?}}}

*Should probably say "efforts" with the quotation marks because it's limited to forum (and sometimes Facebook) discussion and IRL conversations with family rather than actual activism.
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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Eldorion on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:51 am

None of this is helped by me being stressed out due to personal and work issues, and just being depressed in general (although medication and therapy have led to a lot of improvements over the past year). I know I'm not the only person whose anxiety (in the clinical sense) and stress gets exacerbated by reading emotionally-heated political arguments, much less participating in them. So anyway, sorry for all the word vomit about my self-doubt, but it helps to not have to hold it all in all the time. But still Embarassed
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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by David H on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:53 am

Eldorion wrote: As you guys have probably noticed over the years I tend to be bothered by misinformation and hyperbole from both sides, even when I do agree with one over the other, but I feel kinda bad now and am questioning whether or not my efforts* at promoting greater factual accuracy from the liberal side are actually counter-productive.


You're talking about exactly the kind of impartiality we'd like to expect from our judges, Eldo. The ability to separate the facts and the law from personal opinion, which is often a very difficult thing to do. Yates did what she did because that's what she was sworn to do, and I'm sure she'll be respected for it by the people who matter on both sides. IMO you can't go wrong standing up for facts over misinformation in the long run (though of course there are always times when courtesy and respect dictate keeping one's mouth shut... Smile )

But I wouldn't worry about "counterproductive" if I were you. Integrity beats productivity, hands down!

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by bungobaggins on Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:01 am

You want Hitler, you got it.

As a trained persuader, I’m seeing a dangerous situation forming that I assume is invisible to most of you. The setup is that during the presidential campaign Trump’s critics accused him of being Hitler(ish) and they were sure other citizens would see it too, thus preventing this alleged monster from taking office.

They were wrong. The alleged monster took office.

Now you have literally millions of citizens in the United States who were either right about Trump being the next Hitler, and we will see that behavior emerge from him soon, or they are complete morons. That’s a trigger for cognitive dissonance. The science says these frightened folks will start interpreting all they see as Hitler behavior no matter how ridiculous it might seem to the objective observer. And sure enough, we are seeing that.

To be fair, Trump made it easy this week with his temporary immigration ban. If you assume Trump is Hitler, that fits with your hypothesis. But of course it also fits the hypothesis that he’s just doing his job. We’re all seeing what we expect to see.

But lately I get the feeling that Trump’s critics have evolved from expecting Trump to be Hitler to preferring it. Obviously they don’t prefer it in a conscious way. But the alternative to Trump becoming Hitler is that they have to live out the rest of their lives as confirmed morons. No one wants to be a confirmed moron. And certainly not after announcing their Trump opinions in public and demonstrating in the streets. It would be a total embarrassment for the anti-Trumpers to learn that Trump is just trying to do a good job for America. It’s a threat to their egos. A big one.

And this gets me to my point. When millions of Americans want the same thing, and they want it badly, the odds of it happening go way up. You can call it the power of positive thinking. It is also the principle behind affirmations. When humans focus on a desired future, events start to conspire to make it happen.

I’m not talking about any new-age magic. I’m talking about ordinary people doing ordinary things to turn Trump into an actual Hitler. For example, if protesters start getting violent, you could expect forceful reactions eventually. And that makes Trump look more like Hitler. I can think of dozens of ways the protesters could cause the thing they are trying to prevent. In other words, they can wish it into reality even though it is the very thing they are protesting.

In the 3rd dimension of persuasion, the protesters need to be proven right, and they will do whatever it takes to make that happen. So you might see the protesters inadvertently create the police state they fear.

If you are looking for the tells that this dangerous situation is developing, notice how excited/happy the Trump critics seem to be – while angry at the same time – that Trump’s immigration ban fits their belief system. If you see people who are simply afraid of Trump, they are probably harmless. But the people who are excited about any Hitler-analogy-behavior by Trump might be leading the country to a police state without knowing it.

So watch for that.



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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Eldorion on Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:14 am

David H wrote:You're talking about exactly the kind of impartiality we'd like to expect from our judges, Eldo. The ability to separate the facts and the law from personal opinion, which is often a very difficult thing to do.  Yates did what she did because that's what she was sworn to do, and I'm sure she'll be respected for it by the people who matter on both sides.  IMO you can't go wrong standing up for facts over misinformation in the long run (though of course there are always times when courtesy and respect dictate keeping one's mouth shut... Smile )

But I wouldn't worry about "counterproductive" if I were you. Integrity beats productivity, hands down!

Thanks, Dave. Smile
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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:43 pm

{{As I am sure you are aware its not just in the US folk have been protesting Trump- its been happening in countries all over the world, Scotland being no exception.
Here's some of my favourite signs and placards from the Scottish demonstrations picked for amusement factor and Scottishness rather than any politics}}














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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:54 pm

I think Scott Adams has a point that over-reacting to Trump causes its own problems. But he's also feeding into it when he doesn't have to. For example, he does have a perfect and reasonable right to order extreme vetting, and even to put a hold on new visas. But putting a hold on existing visas accomplished almost nothing (what are the chances that that one of those who happened to be travelling was a terrorist?) while disrupting innocent lives. If not for the protests, I doubt those that eventually got through would have in fact gotten through.

I've written before that hysteria over things like climate change causes a richochet effect that is counter productive. Yes this is happening with Trump. But he can't be allowed his more egregious tendencies either. The next battle will be over pollution (I think CO2 is a battle we have to give up as there is no immediate danger). Pollution does not respect state boundaries, but Trump has already shown signs of rolling back Federal control. Here I think protest should be replaced by hard science and measurement.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by bungobaggins on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:27 pm

Expect to see more screaming and gnashing of teeth when he announces his SCOTUS pick.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:35 pm

{{Its all very interesting I have to say as a phenomenon to observe.
There have been protests here before of course about US Presidents- but never quite like this- in the past the protests were either over something very specific or they were something to which the UK was directly involved- such as the Iraq war.
I have never seen widespread protests against a US President just on basic moral grounds- its not just this specific ban they are protesting its Trump the person- there are as many banners speaking of his racist, sexist comments as there are ones about refugees.

I suppose this is what happens if you tell the world for long enough you are its Leader of the Free parts of it, and then you elect someone the rest of the free parts of it think stands for everything thats opposite to what the free world has been trying to do since the end of WW2. }}

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:45 pm

Yes, if Trump would just be a nicer, less ego centered person the protests would drop to a fraction even with the same policies.

As for the Supreme Court pick, there's always wailing and gnashing teeth. That won't be anything new!

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:59 pm


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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:01 pm

This makes me feel better - that the major problem with the executive order was the implementation rather than what's actually in it.


A senior U.S. official says 872 refugees will be allowed into the United States this week despite the Trump administration executive order suspending the U.S. refugees program.

Kevin McAleenan, acting commissioner of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency, said these refugees would be granted waivers. He said that was allowed for under the order, in instances where refugees were ready for travel and stopping them would cause "undue hardship."

McAleenan said this was being done in concert with the State Department. He said 872 refugees will be arriving this week and will processed for waivers through the end of the week.

He was speaking at a news conference Tuesday about the administration's new immigration restrictions, which also suspends arrival by nationals from seven predominantly Muslim nations.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by David H on Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:56 pm

It does sound from that like at least part of the team was thinking ahead. I sure hope they can come together and start working as a team soon! All politics aside, we all suffer when our leadership stumbles like this. Rolling Eyes

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Eldorion on Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:52 am

Trump's SCOTUS nominee, Neil Gorsuch, sounds like an eminently qualified candidate and reading highlights from his opinions it seems likely that he would be a worthy successor to Scalia in terms of penning entertaining and quotable decisions (and also in terms of being very conservative which I'm less thrilled by, although I respect principled and consistent textualism).

http://www.scotusblog.com/2017/01/potential-nominee-profile-neil-gorsuch/
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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:38 am

His mother lead the EPA under Reagan, and wreaked havoc upon it. She was eventually forced out by congress.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-supreme-court-pick-and-his-infamous-mother-012731939.html

I don't know if he holds her views. Except for that, I'd say he was a rather uncontroversial pick, though the Democrats plan to fight against him for siding with corporations over individuals.

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