All New Who

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:12 pm

{{The point is your original point- which was that 12's crisis was not justified because we never saw anything that led to it we were just told it was happening- when in fact we had loads of stuff which we saw which led to it. }}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Amarië on Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:44 pm

Not justified... What? It's about writing style, different ways of telling a story, different ways of getting the message across.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:28 pm

Doctor Who is a man who should be mysterious, the reason he left Gallifrey should be left a mystery. RTD flirted around this question, but Moffat just waded in and boringly explained everything in long winded angsty exposition. Instead of just getting on with adventures.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:58 am

Amarie-- thats not what Figg was arguaging-

' We are not shown any of those things but told about them as memories or hindsight. that's tell not show.'- Figg

Given there is more than a two series of build up to 12's crisis of personality and its all there on screen thats a hell of a lot of show!'


Moffat just waded in and boringly explained everything in long winded angsty exposition- Figg

{{He did? Brilliant Ive waited more than 50 years to find that out yet seem to have missed it!!! Perhaps you could enlighten to me as to all this explanation that was given! }}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:15 am

{{If the complaint is Moffat added stuff to the show and the Doctors past (so de-mystifiying it) then here is a list, off the top of my head so plenty Ive missed too I'm sure that others might think of, of major changes, additions, inventions, and bits of the Doctors past that have been added in the years up to Moffat taking over and which have stuck about ever since their introduction as core parts of Who lore-

1st Doctor-= TARDIS. Daleks. Cybermen. Heart of the TARDIS. The idea the Doctor is on the run from his own people. Susan, his granddaughter.
2nd Doctor- Sonic Screwdriver. Time Lords. Ice Warriors. Psychic communication cubes. Time Lord non-interference rule.
3rd Doctor- Gallifrey, Kasterborous, the Academy, The Doctors favourite tutor and accompanying childhood tales, the Doctor's favourite hermit he used to visit when he felt like crap and more tales of his childhood. That the TARDIS is stolen. The Master, the Doctors oldest, closest childhood friend (never previously mentioned), the 1st Law of Time. Sontarans. 'regeneration' invented as the name for the process by which the Doctor changes upon death. Two hearts. TARDIS consoles can travel in time and space without the exterior shell.
4th Doctor- Time Lord High Council. The position of Lord President. More childhood mentors and Time Lord Academy tutors, more tales from his academy days, such as how he did on his exams. Two completely different versions of regeneration (Romanna's and the Doctors with the Watcher), Davros, previously unmentioned creator of the Daleks. Regeneration limit of 12 introduced for first time. Arton energy introduced as side effect of time travel in the vortex. The Sisterhood of Karn.
5th Doctor- The Zero Room. Reto creation and insertion of Rassilon as one of the Founders of Gallifreyean Time lord society. The Death Zones and that entire era of Gallifreyean history they belong to. Earlier versions not remembering meeting themselves when time lines cross added.
6th Doctor- The Valeyard. The Matrix.
7th Doctor- the Doctor is more than just another Time Lord revelation. Hand of Omega retroed in as part of the reason he left Gallifrey and what he was doing the night he met Ian and Barbara in the 60's as 1.
8th Doctor- the Doctor claiming he is half-human on his moither's side.
9th Doctor- Time War, Nightmare Child, Army of Neverwheres ect retroed into the gap when the series was off air.
10th Doctor- Master returns retroed with a drum beat in his head, apparently since childhood even though he previously never showed any signs or hints of it. Gallifreyean Academy candidates put before the Untempered Schism at age 8 (though why High Gallifreyean Houses would allow their offspring to be put before something which instantly 'drives some mad' is a question and a half!). Description of Gallifrey from the Doctors childhood complete with more childhood tales running through fields of grass with the Master. Meta-crisis regenerations. The Cult of Skaro Daleks. TARDISes are grown. TARDIS translator circuits explained retro explaining past occurrences of aliens speaking English. Time Lords picking their own name when they graduate. The Doctor being well known throughout time and space with titles like The Oncoming Storm and Last of the Time Lords.

Certainly not an exhaustive list but I think the point is clear enough!}}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:49 pm

my point stands.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:44 pm

{{Yes but on what? Assertion alone? Personally I think the overwhelming mountain of evidence pointing to the contrary stands! }}}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:16 am

throwing stats at it wont make it go away. sorry.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:18 am

{{{ And being in complete contradiction of all the evidence doesn't make you right either. sorry. }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Amarië on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:00 pm

That's that part settled then. Perhaps we can move on to the next part, which is the bit that I find interesting:

Mrs Figg wrote:boringly explained everything in long winded angsty exposition. Instead of just getting on with adventures.

((Hopefully while trying to entertain the idea that perhaps this isn't about blind hate against Moffat.))

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Re: All New Who

Post by halfwise on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:06 pm

From what little I've seen of the most recent Who I also feel there was too much psychological exploration of the Doctor rather than just letting him be him. It smacked of what happened to Sherlock where there was this constant attempt to explore his psychology. Just stop it already.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:30 pm

{{Im waiting on an answer on that one too Amarie- I dont remember explaining anything about why the Doctor left Gallifrey.

Halfy - I dont think thats the case at all- at least 80% of it is under the hood, from the context and setting and events, rather than it being highlighted as the main thing. Its there to be read into, and its highlighted enough to keep the viewer pointed in the right direction of consideration- but its hardly like every episode is an undepth study of the Doctors mind.}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by halfwise on Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:14 pm

I don't think anybody means it's completely taken over the show, it's just like, as in Sherlock, every now and then an attempt is made to delve into psychology, and it's pretty annoying when it happens. The writers seem to expect there will be a sigh of satisfaction from the audience when a new reveal is made; and maybe there would be if there wasn't an obvious attempt to milk it.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:22 pm

'every now and then an attempt is made to delve into psychology'- Halfy

{{You see, I think that description would be an utter misconception of it- its not an attempt made every now and then- its the undercurrent, its the underlining theme of the Capaldi era - the Doctor pondering if what he does is really for the overall good long term, and if its worth it. Yet nowhere, no when does he ever say that out loud or is ever stated openly.
For example the conversation with Half-face man in Deep Breath about the broom- its on the surface all about Half-face man and all the humanity he has stuffed himself full of and the fact he has been doing it over and over for generations- that its also true of the Doctor makes it more interesting, but its never spoken aloud that its about him, its inferred from when he sees his own face in the mirror as he accuses Half-face man of "not being able to remember where he got that face from".
If your 7 and watching you probably missed all the sub commentary on the Doctor and just saw him challenging the bad guy. The show should and has to work that way at its best- on more than one level for more than one audience because it has more than one audience. }}

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Re: All New Who

Post by halfwise on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:23 pm

its not an attempt made every now and then- its the undercurrent, its the underlining theme of the Capaldi era

Ha! Snuck it out of you. But it seems where you see an artful undercurrent others are miffed it's even there. For the few episodes I watched I could feel it, and it made it less fun, less escapist.

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Re: All New Who

Post by David H on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:27 pm

OK, just to give one example of an episode that seemed to me more "psychy-wychy" than "timey-wimey", what about "Listen"?
Using the Tardis to explore old memories and childhood angsts of the leading characters... Really, that's a bit heavy handed isn't it?

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:21 pm

Snuck it out of you.- Halfy

{{Um I opened with a statement that I was discussing those very underlying themes from the Capaldi era, in the very first sentence. No wonder I have so much trouble on this thread no one bloody reads anything! Mad

David- Listen isn't about the Doctors psychology as such, its far more about the Doctors personality, and in particular 12's personality- its no coincidence this is the episode where Capaldi felt he first really got a handle on his take on the Doctor and it was the defining episode for 12 for Capaldi- because its a personality episode- what drives the Doctors personality, the manner in which he latches onto this powerful idea and runs with it, the zeal he has for it to the point of near obsession, his habit of using lecture structures even in conversation with himself to work through problems, the driven nature of his approach to it- Listen is the episode which defines and solidifies 12's personality, the rest is just the backdrop on which that hangs.
I am not saying it doesn't have a psychological side to it, it does, but its not the main point or reason for it, or the main take away from it.
And if you look at its placing in the series- before it is Into the Dalek, which has some insightful stuff but its basically just a typical sort of dalek story, Robots of Sherwood which is a historical romp, a two part intergalactic bank heist and the Caretaker, which is a sci-fi romantic comedy, so its not like they are hammering on at it or lacking in the usual variation of the show because of it, in fact its probably got more variation of styles and genres than most series do.}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:45 am

{{Looking back at Who series there is in general 6-8 episodes directly linked to the overall arc per series (by directly linked I mean its the main thrust of the episode not a secondary or underlying theme, and often at least 2, sometimes 4 of those episodes will compromise of two, two-part episodes, so one story each)- though there is some wide variation in a few outliers such as series 7 which was in two halves and doesn't have a series long arc but two half series arcs- the first dealing with Amy and Rory, the second with Clara.

In series 8 there are 4 episodes which are directly linked to the theme of the Doctors mental state and past and the interaction between the two.
But its very important to note its not the main arc of series 8- that would be Missy and the Promised Land- nor is it the secondary arc of series 8- that would be the subject of lying, nor is it even the third arc of series 8- that would be Clara beginning her journey towards becoming more and more like the Doctor in her actions and recklessness- its the 4th arc, the underlying arc, only occasionally surfacing so you know its there and to remind you to keep an eye on it. And of course on the surface level its largely just a collection of far-fetched adventure tales- which is how my nieces can enjoy it as much as an old crabbit scrutinizer of film and tv such as myself- long may it continue to do so as the day it stops the shows dead- you can't afford to lose the nippers, they are your nostalgia fueled ticket to Who of the future existing, and you cant lose the teenagers, as they have the most spending power, and you cant lose the adults because they are what keep it in a prime time tv slot and not on children's tv schedules and provide the need to elevate the shows content above just an another wacky sci-fi adventure. }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by David H on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:22 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{But its very important to note its not the main arc of series 8- that would be Missy and the Promised Land- nor is it the secondary arc of series 8- that would be the subject of lying, nor is it even the third arc of series 8- that would be Clara beginning her journey towards becoming more and more like the Doctor in her actions and recklessness- its the 4th arc, the underlying arc, only occasionally surfacing so you know its there and to remind you to keep an eye on it. }}}

Wait, are we talking about a story line or a geometric construction??? Suspect


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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:02 am

{{{ A geometric metaphor is not a bad comparison actually for a good Who series- but music is probably better- its like composing you want several unique and identifiable melodies which will all come together and reveal their relationship to one another at the crescendo.
Out of Capaldi's 3 series for me the last one is the weakest, not because its bad, or not got good episodes, and I am a huge fan of the finale overall, but it lacks much under the hood, there arent the usual blend of melodies a series has. Its got a simple tune for the most part with not a lot else going on for rewatch and fun- much more like series 1-4 of NuWho }}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:21 pm


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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:04 pm

https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/david-bradley-returns-to-the-tardis-in-doctor-who-the-first-doctor-adventures



Materialising in time for the New Year, The First Doctor Adventures features David Bradley reprising his role in a new set of stories for a very familiar, yet very new, Doctor.

Following his stellar portrayal of William Hartnell in BBC Two’s An Adventure in Space and Time, David Bradley (Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Broadchurch, Captain America) is set to star as the First Doctor in this year’s BBC One Doctor Who Christmas Special alongside Peter Capaldi. And now Big Finish Productions, in arrangement with BBC Worldwide, are giving this reimagined First Doctor another chance to explore the cosmos!

Joining David Bradley are his co-stars from An Adventure in Space and Time reprising their roles as the iconic first TARDIS team. Jamie Glover (Elizabeth, Waterloo Road, Holby City) plays Ian Chesterton, Jemma Powell (Alice in Wonderland, Angel, Foyle’s War) plays Barbara Wright, and Claudia Grant (Harry Potter and the Cursed Child) plays Susan – the Doctor’s granddaughter and the original ‘Unearthly Child’.

“The adventures of the First Doctor are all about discovery,” says script editor and writer Matt Fitton, “finding out what this infinite universe contains, and also who our fellow travellers are. As we journey with Ian, Barbara, Susan and the mysterious Doctor, we come to see what they are capable of when confronted with the strange, the unjust and the dangerous.”

Executive producer Nicholas Briggs: “Having worked with David twice now on TV, it’s great to be working with him again. Matt and his team of writers have come up with such a beautifully authentic set of scripts. We forget how different Doctor Who was, back in those early days – and here it all is, painstakingly recreated. I find that rather thrilling.”

Nick adds: "What's fascinating about the cast and their performances is that they're not impersonating William Hartnell and his TARDIS crew. They're playing those parts as written in the scripts. No one can replace the brilliance of those original performances. What we're presenting here is a kind of reinvention of that era, completely in the spirit of the original. They are new but entirely faithful interpretations of these characters."

“I’ve always been a great admirer of David Bradley’s work”, says executive producer Jason Haigh-Ellery, “and thought that he was an excellent choice to play William Hartnell in An Adventure in Space and Time. After his brilliant performance, we immediately thought about bringing David in to play the First Doctor for Big Finish – it took us a while – but we got there in the end! I’m so looking forward to seeing David in the Christmas Special and then listening to his further adventures with us.”

This series of adventures pays homage to the beginning years of Doctor Who, and each of the four episodes in each story will be given an individual title. Two of the four stories are historical, focusing on tales from Earth’s history pre-1963. Back in its first few years, Doctor Who was intended to be an educational programme using time travel as a means to explore scientific ideas and famous moments in history, while still captivating the minds and imaginations of generations to come.

Not only will the Doctor be exploring our history, but he will also encounter strange new life forms – the Dalmari and the Ashtallans.

And in a Big Finish exclusive, the First Doctor will encounter his greatest foe, the first incarnation of fellow Time Lord, the Master, played by James Dreyfus.

Available in January, the stories in The First Doctor Adventures - Volume 1 consist of:

1.1 The Destination Wars by Matt Fitton

1.2 The Great White Hurricane by Guy Adams

And to follow in July 2018, Doctor Who: The First Doctor Adventures – Volume 2:

2.1 The Invention of Death by John Dorney

2.2 The Barbarians and the Samurai by Andrew Smith

Doctor Who: The First Doctor Adventures – Volume 1 is available for pre-order now at £23 on CD or £20 on download from Big Finish and will remain at this price until general release when it will be available for £35 on CD or £30 on download.

Doctor Who: The First Doctor Adventures – Volume 1 can also be purchased as a bundle with Doctor Who: The First Doctor Adventures – Volume 2, to be released in July 2018, at the price of £45 on CD and £40 on download (all CD purchases from the Big Finish website unlock a download exclusive from the Big Finish website and app).

Shocked scratch

Didn't see that coming!

Not sure how I feel, I'm generally opposed to recasting because A) It arguably cheapens the work of the original actors and undermines the uniqueness of each Doctor and B) It means the franchise can be stretched out needlessly-they already have regeneration to take care of changing the actors, and Big Finish has done lots of Lost Stories, Early Adventures, Short Trips and Companion Chronicles 1st Doctor stories, with the surviving companion actors doing narration as the 1st Doctor which work around Hartnell's absence really well...I mean, was this range really necessary? The original actors will all retire or die eventually but we've already got lots of new 1st Doctor audio stories, do we really need more with a brand new alternate cast merely to plug a gap in the market? That's not to say I don't appreciate all the work/talent that goes into this, but it just seems a bit monetary driven and unnecessary whilst some of the original actors are still working with them, hmm...

On the other hand, it's certainly interesting/exciting to see BF take risks like this, David Bradley is a great actor and he captured William Hartnell's mannerisms really well in An Adventure In Time And Space (though he was less convincing as the 1st Doctor) and after his appearance in the Xmas special there might be a increased interest in 1st Doctor audios which will hopefully bring some new customers BF's way.

I'm unlikely to get these myself, but it's certainly intriguing to see how it differs from Hartnell's take on the 1st Doctor.

The original Master though, that's going to be interesting...

Shrugging

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:08 pm

{{ Not entirely sure how I feel about this either Malick- but its been an interesting phenomenon to follow.
I mean the precedent of replacing the Doctor, in particular the 1st, with a different actor was set in the Five Doctors when Hurndall played him. But the unplanned route of this has been interesting.
First he plays Hartnell in a docudrama, then he plays the actual 1st Doctor in the upcoming xmas episode, and now again for BF with all the actors from the docudrama who played the real actors from the original run, playing the characters this time. Its all been rather organic. And a head scratcher- but might be interesting.
Also curious what they will do with the Master, retrofitting him into that era. }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:04 pm

{{{{ Rumour mill is that the 13th Doctor will have
Spoiler:
three companions, and a cat! (no word on if its a tin-cat yet or not).
Now I'm certainly not opposed to more than a single companion, in fact I prefer it in general, Amy and Rory work well, Nardole and Bill too- but three plus the Doctor is pushing it a bit more into 80's Who territory, when the 5th Doctor traveled in a crowd and there was definitely an issue around fully developing and giving useful screen time to everyone.
On the other-hand it worked with Ian, Barbara and Susan with the first Doctor, but the format and pace of the show was such back then that it had the time and luxury to spend on developing them. Not sure the modern 50 minute format supports that as well. Going to be interesting to see how this goes.
}}}

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Pettytyrant101
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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:12 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{{{ Rumour mill is that the 13th Doctor will have
Spoiler:
three companions, and a cat! (no word on if its a tin-cat yet or not).
Now I'm certainly not opposed to more than a single companion, in fact I prefer it in general, Amy and Rory work well, Nardole and Bill too- but three plus the Doctor is pushing it a bit more into 80's Who territory, when the 5th Doctor traveled in a crowd and there was definitely an issue around fully developing and giving useful screen time to everyone.
On the other-hand it worked with Ian, Barbara and Susan with the first Doctor, but the format and pace of the show was such back then that it had the time and luxury to spend on developing them. Not sure the modern 50 minute format supports that as well. Going to be interesting to see how this goes.
}}}

Perhaps that explains the Bradley Walsh rumour, maybe he is the father of the main companion, a recurring character like Wilf or Jackie Tyler the third companion maybe being his son/daughter's partner or something?

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