All New Who

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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:15 pm

It's taken me more than two years but as I'm just about to start Reckless Engineering I'm nearing my end of a read through of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Doctor_Adventures

There's been crushing lows (Legacy Of The Daleks, The Face Eater soaring heights Alien Bodies, The Year Of Intelligent Tigers, Father Time confused disappointments The Taking Of Planet 5 and head scratching, how the hell did this get past the BBC editors (The Adventuress Of Henrietta Street entries in the series (not to mention at least two jaw dropping events in the Interference novels), a mixed, but very fascinating and imaginative range of tie in fiction.

The EDA novels were already into the mid 40's when Storm Warning the first Big Finish 8th Doctor audio was released, and up to that point had just the TV Movie and McGann's other roles to use as inspiration to expand and develop the 8th Doctor, it's been really interesting to compare the two mediums, there's certainly references and similarities between the two ranges (and also a certain amount of continuity issues- e.g. there's absolutely no way to reconcile Legacy Of The Daleks with An Earthly Child from the 8th Doctor audios, but I guess that's one of the benefits/pitfalls of having no official canon in a time travel franchise-anything can happen at any point), and many of the novels weirdly capture the 8th Doctor of the audios, years before McGann returned to the role, but the novels also pushed the 8th Doctor in dramatically different directions that the BBC or Big Finish would never dream off, and comfortably stand as their own experimental era of Doctor Who.

It's been a very enjoyable journey reading through these novels (Fitz Kriener, a lazy chain smoking sexist layabout from the 1960's is the main companion in the range, lasting from The Taint right through to the ending The Gallifrey Chronicles he has quickly become one of my favourite companions, really refreshing to get a slightly useless, but loyal everyman who blunders through the stories, reluctantly helping the Doctor where he can, gradually growing from a self centered coward into a flawed hero of sorts, reminds me somewhat of the 2nd Doctor/Jamie 12th Doctor/Nardole partnerships, sometimes the most unlikely characters become the best ideas for companions), and I'll be sad to finish it, but I plan to keep hold of the books and revisit some of the novels in future years.

(And looking back at this series of novels, through the perspective of a familiarity  with New Who it's been rather amusing to see entire concepts, scenes or arcs ripped wholesale from the novels and reworked for the TV series...I wonder where RTD got the idea of
Spoiler:
A timewar between the Timelords and an enemy bleeding back from the future culminating in the Doctor destroying Gallifrey
from Suspect )

There's been very few I've hated, and I've enjoyed the majority of the novels, but I think my favorites so far (for quality and/or just standing out as different) would be:

The Bodysnatchers essentially a gothic serial from the Tom Baker/Phillip Hincliffe era of the early 1970's only with the 8th Doctor, features fan favourite character Professor George Lightfoot, the character later got a Big Finish spinoff series.



Alien BodiesI'm guessing Moffat was a fan, he certainly pinched some ideas from it...



Vampire Sciencevery much feels like a spiritual sequel to The TV Movie, it was actually supposed to revist Grace Holloway from the TV Movie but rights issues forced the authors to rewrite the story.



Seeing Ijust a great character study and page turner



Demontage really inventive, visual story that leaps of the page, in his second story Fitz already comes across as a great character.

Interference Book 1+2 a sprawling, near 700 page epic split across two novels, complicated plot, lots of interesting ideas and several jaw dropping moments, rather convoluted and pretentious at points i.m.o but it definitely pushes the limits of tie in fiction, definitely couldn't do this one on TV.



Frontier WorldsHillarious Bondian pastiche



The Scarlet Empress utterly bonkers in the best way possible, a very bizzare story much more of a fantasy than sci-fi



(The Ancestor CellA gloriously epic mess, and I mean that in a good way, very divisive novel and
Spoiler:
The Doctor doesdestroy Gallifrey in this story



The Turing TestThe whole Earth exile is gold, but this was a very surprising low key character study, definitely not what I expected from the cover...



Father TimeThe Doctor as an adoptive Father and family man exiled on earth in the 1980's, just fantastic, really captures the spirit of the 1980's and the 8th Doctor's morals, definitely in my top five, if I had to choose this would be the one novel I'd most like Big Finish to adapt one day, because it puts the Doctor in such a different story compared to BF's usual output



The Year Of Intelligent TigersA stunning piece of writing for a tie in novel i.m.o, and a great novel in its right, perhaps my favourite of the entire series, a bonkers plot, evocative world building, great dialogue, and a low key, slow paced character study add up to a very surprising, unusual novel



The City Of The Dead-A fun little romp, detailed descriptions and great dialogue



The Adventuress of Henrietta Street-I remember being A) Kinda perplexed by what I had just read and how it actually got past the BBC editors and B) Impressed by how imaginative/dark this story was, definitely a marmite book but a very good one! It introduces Sabbath a recurring character for the next 20 or so books, a time traveller from 1780's London, a sort of anti-Doctor...



Mad Dogs And Englishme, from the author of The Scarlet Empress and The Blue Angel another camp, lurid, bonkers story, very enjoyable, and of interest to everyone here, the story works in a parody of LOTR and Tolkien himself...I'd have liked to see this one filmed on a Classic Who budget just to see how weird it would be...



([b]Hope[/b-]Another enjoyable book, i.m.o the entire Anji/Fitz/Doctor run is pretty much gold as far as consistency, world building and story quality goes i.m.o, not all of the books push the boundaries but even the one that do 'trad' Who are rather good as far as tie in fiction goes)



([b]Trading Futures
Picture a late 90's Bond film, only with more humour and intergalactic space rhinos)



(The Crooked World-I never would have thought a Looney Tunes parody could make for such an enjoyable, morally grey book, great imagery and a surprising amount of pathos).

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:40 pm

{{{I grew up on the TARGET novelizations- in the days before the internet or even much classic Who on VHS when it arrived the TARGET novelizations were often my first introduction to a classic story. A particular terrifying favourite as a child was the novelization of Web of Fear. I must have read that twenty times or more as a kid at least a full decade before I ever saw a single image from the original tv version or of the 2nd Doctor- the first 2 Doctors existed solely on the page for me for years.
They had excellent cover art too.



I haven't read many of the ones you mention Malick, though I know Moffat is indeed a fan and champion of Body Parts. }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:30 pm


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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:33 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

I haven't read many of the ones you mention Malick, though I know Moffat is indeed a fan and champion of Body Parts. }}}

Well he's Scottish, he's bound to to like Haggis Razz

If you meant Alien Bodies (which is fantastic by the way...or at least packed with lots of interesting ideas and plot, never would have thought the Krotons would make such an interesting adversary...) then yes it's pretty clear he was, plot points and scenes are 'coincidentally' lifted wholesale from the book such as
Spoiler:
the current Doctor encountering his future grave, the Doctor parking the Tardis halfway down a building,
a time war from the Doctor's future spilling back into his present
and it's littered with lots of timey wimey shenanigans, I think you'd enjoy it, you can probably pick up a cheap copy on ebay or amazon.

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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:02 pm

Today I Learned there was a terrible Doctor Who charity single released in 1986 after the show was put on 18 month hiatus:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Doctor_in_Distress




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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:57 pm

'plot points and scenes are 'coincidentally' lifted wholesale from the book'- Malick

{{{Nothing coincidental about it- read an interview years ago that RTD and Moffat gave together on the 'wilderness years' and they both talked about ideas and stories that they had used or planned to use if they got a chance from books/radio ect they thought deserved to be in the 'proper' show. RTD went so far as to get Family of Blood and its original author to turn it into an episode (sadly, much as I enjoy that 2-parter it doesn't work nearly as well as the original book which was for the 7th Doctor whom the story suits much better- 10 is already pretty much like a human so the shift is not so great, when it happened to 7 it was a genuine shocker). }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:44 pm

Couple of things Capaldi let slip at a convention panel:

Apparently he wasn't paid for the initial regeneration sequence (I think his appearance in the 50th Anniversary was shot on the same day) because he wasn't technically under contract at that point, the BBC only starts paying when you start filming the season proper.

'Listen' was the first episode where he felt he truly began to slot into and understand the character-he cites completely understanding the character now as one of the reasons he is leaving i.e it seems like he never wanted to get to a point where he completely knew what he was doing and going through the motions, the character arc of the 12th Doctor is complete.

Apparently Moffat hated the original Cybermen Laughing , they were only in the Series 10 finale because Capaldi kept pushing for them, Moffat relenting as a farewell present of sorts.

Capaldi has seen Jodie Whittaker's post regeneration performance and praises it highly, says we are in safe hand, he found out they had cast a woman for the 13th Doctor when the show's tailors asked for a different sized trousers for the regeneration sequence.

Capaldi is doing a film with Armando Iannuci next year...The Thick Of It Brexit special perhaps?

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:56 am

{{I knew about Listen being Capaldi's 'got it nailed' episode but I didn't know Moffat disliked the Mondasian Cybermen- he certainly made them work incredibly well in a modern context for someone who disliked them! }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:53 pm

Teaser for the new part-animated Shada:



Personally, I don't really see the point in this, a mix of upscaled live action and cheap animation seems a odd way to complete the story, there's already four or five other versions of Shada (personally I actually preferred the audioplay with Paul McGann over the Tom Baker version) including the video release Baker narrated the gaps in, and frankly I don't think the story is as great as its reputation suggests, why couldn't they animate some of the lost 60's serials instead?

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:38 pm

{{{I agree its overrated, its got a mystique because its Adams and everyone loves City of Death, and because it was never finished. But so many different versions of it now surely everyone has a version they can enjoy? Not sure we need another.

The Mirror is claiming the next series of Who is losing an episode per series but will be going from 45 minutes per episode to 1 hour.
I dont like losing an episode, but I do like the hour thing. Moffat was always trying to push for this (the last time he did so and fortunately succeeded was for Heaven Sent) it just gives secondary characters and plots that space they need to breath and solves the NUWho problem that has plagued the 45 minute format since the start of rushed final thirds. }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:58 am

{{Who effects reel for series 10 from Milk studios who produce and make all the visual effects, cgi and physical for Who }}




{{The full Q&A with Capladi that Malick mentioned above- he is a very engaging speaker and entertaining anecdotes as well as some interesting thoughts on the Doctor in general and the show}}}}}


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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:35 pm


{{{An interesting thing about Murray Gold's time since NuWho began and he has been composing its music, is, as far as I can recall at least, is that he is the only Who composer to have been required to include songs with lyrics as part of episode narratives.

The first was in the 10th Doctor era, the Song of Captivity and the Song of Freedom sung by the Ood-



then another Ood song, the one where they 'sing the Doctor to sleep' at his regeneration, Vale Decam-



His next song was for Abigail in the first of 11's xmas episodes: A Xmas Carol. Abigail was played by opera singer Kathleen Jenkins who also sang the piece simply entitled, Abigail's Song-



Gold's next song composition was in the Rings of Akhaten, much like Vale Decam this song is as much about the Doctors impending regeneration as the subject it hand and it reappears in the regeneration scene of 11. Like Abigails Song it was sung by the actress who played the part of Merry.



Think that's them all unless anyone can think of any Ive missed- and can you think of any other Who composer who has had to write songs as a feature of an episode?

Also whats your favourite Gold composed song and why? }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:42 pm

Some Big Finish News:

A 4th and 5th Series of The Diary Of River Song spinoff has been commissioned

(Matt Lucas recently hinted in an interview his association with Who might not be done yet, but couldn't talk about the details, perhaps he's returning as Nardole and doing some River Song stories for Big Finish?)

Numbers 50 to 100 of the Monthly Range will no longer be repressed on CD, but have been permanently reduced in price to £2.99 on download £6 on CD.

Matt Smith has confirmed he's still interested in doing Big Finish and has talked to Nicholas Briggs about doing some audio stories eventually, but is apparently currently still too busy (and assuming they want to Amy or Rory back for audios, scheduling all three leads would probably prove quite a challenge anyway...)


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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:53 pm

The editor of Doctor Who Magazine on Series 11:



A female Doctor alone was a massive suprise that will really shake up the show, also there are rumours about A) An older male companion B) Less earth set stories C) A tardis team of several companions and D) A serialized story linking every episode together much more tightly.

It certainly seems that Chibnall wants to take the show in a very different direction, will it prove to be exciting or a mistake? bounce scratch study

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Re: All New Who

Post by halfwise on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:34 pm

If they can put an older male companion set against a younger female Doctor and still achieve the dynamic of the Doctor being the one calling the shots and the male not being the protector in a way the viewership finds believable and embraces....well....it will be a major step forward in society. I suppose we saw glimpses of this with Clara taking charge near the end of her run, but in modern media the only sustained such situation I can think of is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and she still had an older male acting in a protector role.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:46 pm

{{ I have three big worries base don current tv drama trends- first its the end of the standalone episode- it will be a series long story where understanding whats going on will depend on having seen what went before- this style of writing has pluses and minuses.
Two the loss of the individual writers voice in favour of a US style Writers Room.
Three that they follow the trend of stuff like ST Discovery to not only drop standalone in favour of series linked episodes, but also to make it more 'adult'. Who is dependent for its survival on every new generation that comes along watching it and so passing it on to their children- its the main way it has survived. Ruin that you ruin everything. }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:09 pm

I don't like the idea of an older male protecting role, because the Doctor shouldn't need protecting just because she is now female, friends and sparring companions yes, helpless woman no. It worked well in Buffy because she was supposed to be a schoolgirl with lots of stuff to learn.
I heard that Chibbers is going to do a lot of interesting historical periods, which is something that has been missing. bored of just Victorian England.

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Re: All New Who

Post by halfwise on Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:05 pm

It will be interesting to see what they do with an older male since this particular circumstance is rather unprecedented. I think it would be somewhat like the men surrounding Joan of Arc.

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Re: All New Who

Post by malickfan on Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:18 am


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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:04 am

{{{Here's what Moffat has had to say about companions dying, or not.

“It’s wrong for Doctor Who. I’m not even crazy about it when they did it with Adric. I don’t think that’s the story”, he said. “I’m sorry, it’s a children’s programme. And explicitly, the companions are like Doctor Who’s children. Or his grandchildren. They’re in his care, and lovely old Doctor Who is opening the TARDIS doors and saying ‘I will always look after you’”.
"Get it right – that’s the story”, he insisted. “It’s not the mean-spirited kind of story where you’ve proved the ‘grittiness’ of real life. It’s not real life – it’s Doctor Who”.

Now you can argue over if occasionally outright killing a companion is good for the show or not, preserves a sense of reality or not ect but it does get to the core of the show being basically an optimist about life the universe and everything.
I fear that Chibnal however may be tempted down that darker 'mean-spirited kind of story where you’ve proved the ‘grittiness’ of real life' as its easier to write and seems to be more up his street- its always been easier to shock than to surprise. }}}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:26 am

{{ On the subject of the dynamic of power between a female Doctor and a male companion- Clara as Halfy mentions does give us some direction here- perhaps most interestingly how hostile a section of fandom was to her 'taking over' the show, mockingly calling it the 'Clara Who' show- that accusation at least cant be leveled at Jodie as she will be the Doctor- but I'm not so sure that resentment of the fact its a female doing it will just go away because of that.

A very interesting scene in Dark Water, the finale of series 8 occurs between Clara and the Doctor. Clara has lost her boyfriend Danny in a senseless and pointless car accident- and even worse he died distracted talking on his phone to Clara.
What I find particualry interesting about it is the Doctors reaosn for doing what he does a she states it- he wanted to see how far Clara would go- and the answer is, as far as he would- "where I stand is where I fall'- the Doctor series 10 finale.
This scene is the point at which Clara and the Doctor start operating on a much more equal basis- not based on gender but on character. The next series immediately following this would chart her becoming more and more like him in her outlook, actions, and recklessness.

Anyhow heres a transcript of the scene in question, see what you make of the power play thats unfolding yourself-

CLARA: You told me once what it would take to destroy a Tardis key. That's what's so good about lava. All seven. From all of your hiding places.
(She holds one up.)
DOCTOR: Clara, what are you doing? Don't. Be very, very careful with that. Those are very, very
(She throws it backwards into the lava.)
CLARA: Do I have your attention?
DOCTOR: Yes.
CLARA: Good.
DOCTOR: No. Not good, Clara.
CLARA: Danny Pink.
DOCTOR: Yeah?
CLARA: Is dead.
DOCTOR: And?
CLARA: Seriously?
DOCTOR: And?
CLARA: And fix it. Change it. Change what happened. Save him. Bring him back.
(She holds up another key and we all remember what happened in Father's Day.)
DOCTOR: No.
(She throws the key away.)
CLARA: Five left. Every time you say no to me, I will throw another key down there. Do we understand each other?
DOCTOR: Well, I understand you. Let's not get carried away.
CLARA: Time can be rewritten.
DOCTOR: With precision. With great care. And not today. But you know that of course, otherwise you wouldn't be threatening me.
CLARA: Did you just say no?
DOCTOR: If I change the events that brought you here, you will never come here and ask me to change those events. Paradox loop. The timeline disintegrates. Your timeline. And yes!
CLARA: Yes?
DOCTOR: Yes. I did just say no. Throw away the key.
CLARA: I have seen you change time, I have seen you break any rule you want.
DOCTOR: I know when I can, I know when I can't. Throw the key.
CLARA: I know what you're doing. You're trying to take control.
DOCTOR: I am in control. Throw away the key. Do as you are told.
CLARA: No!
DOCTOR: Well, either you do as you're told or stop threatening me. There really isn't a third option here.
CLARA: Do you know what, Doctor? When it comes to taking control, you really are out of your depth.
(She throws all the remaining keys bar one into the lava.)
CLARA: One last chance. And I don't care about the rules, I don't give a damn about paradoxes. Save Danny. Bring him back or I swear you will never step inside your Tardis again.
DOCTOR: No.
CLARA: Do as you are told.
DOCTOR: No.
CLARA: Say it again so I know you mean it.
DOCTOR: No!
CLARA: I'm not kidding, Doctor.
DOCTOR: Neither am I.
CLARA: I will do it!
DOCTOR: Clara, my Clara, I don't think you will!
(The last key goes into the lava.)
CLARA: Oh, I'd say I'm sorry but I'd do it again.
(Clara falls to her knees and cries.)
CLARA: I'd do it again. Well, what are you doing? Why are you just standing there? Do you understand what I have just done?
DOCTOR: Look in your hand.
CLARA: There's nothing in my hand.
DOCTOR: Clara, look in your hand.
CLARA: The keys, they're gone. They're down there. They've gone.
DOCTOR: Clara, look in your hand.
CLARA: There's nothing in my hand.
DOCTOR: Yes, yes, yes, there is. Look.
(The sleep patch is in the middle of Clara's palm.)
DOCTOR: Did you seriously think that that was going to work on me?
(And back into the Tardis, to when Clara put the patch on the Doctor's neck. He grabs her hand and neatly presses the patch into her palm instead.)
DOCTOR: They're not sleep patches. They induce a dream state.
(He removes the patch from her palm.)

[Tardis]

DOCTOR: Makes you very suggestible.
(He picks up the Tardis keys from the floor.)
DOCTOR: I allowed the whole scenario to play out just as you planned. I was curious about how far you would go.
CLARA: Well, now you know.
DOCTOR: Yeah. Now I know.
CLARA:I love him.
(The Doctor scans her with the sonic screwdriver.)
DOCTOR: Yes, you're quite the mess of chemicals, aren't you?
CLARA: So, what now? What do we do now? You and me, what happens now? Doctor?
DOCTOR: Go to hell.
(The Tardis lands.)
CLARA: Fair enough. Absolutely fair enough.
(She walks to the door.)
DOCTOR: Clara? You asked me what we're going to do. I told you. We're going to hell. Or wherever it is people go when they die. If there is anywhere. Wherever it is, we're going to go there and we're going to find Danny. And if it is in any way possible, we're going to bring him home. Almost every culture in the universe has some concept of an afterlife. I always meant to have a look around, see if I could find one.
CLARA: You're going to help me?
DOCTOR: Well, why wouldn't I help you?
CLARA: Because of what I just did. I just...
DOCTOR: You betrayed me. Betrayed my trust, you betrayed our friendship, you betrayed everything that I've ever stood for. You let me down!
CLARA: Then why are you helping me?
DOCTOR: Why? Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference? Stop it with the eyes. Don't do that with the eyes. How do you do that anyway? It's like they inflate. Cut out the whining while you're at it. We've got work to do. This is it, Clara, one of those moments.
CLARA: What moments?
DOCTOR: The darkest day. The blackest hour. Chin up, shoulders back. Let's see what we're made of, you and I.

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Re: All New Who

Post by halfwise on Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:45 pm

A thought occurred to me as why having a woman doctor forces the choice of an older male companion.

- can't have a younger companion without tripping the protective mother switch, and the doctor can't be a mother. She needs to be unbound. The actions of a protective mother are too predictable.

- a female, especially a younger one would call up associations with Xena and whoever the hell that blond side-kick was. Can't have that.

- same age male brings up romantic entanglements. Yes, that was largely avoided in the past simply by not writing it in under the reasonable assumption that most males and females do NOT get romantically involved, but when setting out on a new path like a female doctor you'd rather avoid the possibility of such distraction.

So by process of elimination we end up with an older male. Of course now the tropes of protective older male, the wise old grandfather, etc need to be avoided as well. Very curious to see how they do it.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:55 pm

{{They could get round it by increasing the companion number- the fifth traveled with four or five companions often for example, hell the 1st Doctor started out with three. Doing that allows the companions to have inter relation storylines without them depending on the Doctor.

But companions are not the only gender related issue they will have to deal with, especially if Figg is right and they plan on doing more historical tales they will need to deal with the issue that as a woman she will not be respected and not assumed to have any authority for most of human history.
The Doctor's most common used tactic is to sweep into a room and take total control of a situation by sheer force of personality and knowledge- that will meet a lot more opposition than it already does if its woman doing it in a historical setting. }}}

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Re: All New Who

Post by halfwise on Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:49 pm

Good point.

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Re: All New Who

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:23 am

"The Doctor's most common used tactic is to sweep into a room and take total control of a situation by sheer force of personality and knowledge- that will meet a lot more opposition than it already does if its woman doing it in a historical setting". Petty

Unless you happen to be Elizabeth I and then you sweep into a room and take total control of a situation by sheer force of personality and knowledge. But this is playing by men's rules because she lived in a mans world. Maybe The Doctor doesn't play by those rules anymore. Maybe she doesn't want to sweep into a room and take control, maybe its going to be more subtle.

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