Sherlock - BBC

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Norc on Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:17 am

halfwise wrote:
Anything Moffat writes is golden. Seeing his name attached to an actor with the improbably British name "Benedict Cumberbatch" had me in a tizzy before I even saw the first episode. I mean, that name's right up there with Basil Rathbone.

He do have a very funny name Very Happy
season one is here I believe, dunno about season two, probably not Smile
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by halfwise on Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:54 pm

Ah, thanks for pointing out it arrived in the US, Eldo. I had checked not so long ago and it wasn't available. It's on Netflix, score!
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Eldorion on Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:48 pm

Glad I could help. Very Happy Enjoy!
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by chris63 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:57 am

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:06 pm

An interesting piece from the Guardian which hopefullymight spark some heated debate! Twisted Evil

This concerns the first episode of series two and is full of spoilers start to finish. DO NOT read if you have not watched this episode yet!!!

Spoiler:
The instant Irene Adler's scarlet-tipped fingers extended across the frame on Sunday night, it seemed certain that Steven Moffat's rewriting of Sherlock Holmes's famed female adversary would cause some consternation. The series opener of Sherlock – watched live by almost 10 million people – updated Arthur Conan Doyle's A Scandal in Bohemia, the short story in which Holmes is, unusually, outwitted by an acute American adventuress in possession of a compromising picture of the Bohemian king. The woman Holmes referred to as "the woman" was remade by Moffat as a high-class dominatrix saved only from certain death by the dramatic intervention of our hero. While Conan Doyle's original is hardly an exemplar of gender evolution, you've got to worry when a woman comes off worse in 2012 than in 1891.

In many ways the Holmes stories are a perfect fit for Moffat's skill-set. The puzzle-box plotting, the 24/7 bromance, the fetishisation of "masculine" reason over pesky "feminine" emotion, all suit him right down to the ground. In the case of his stewardship of Doctor Who, Moffat's tendency to write women plucked straight from a box marked "tired old tropes" (drip/scold/temptress/earth mother to name but a few), and his consequent failure to sketch a compelling central dynamic between the lead and his companion, has seriously affected the show's dramatic power. But no such trouble with Sherlock.

Doctor Who has never just been about a dashing alien who happens to be wicked smart. The Doctor cares about stuff, and uses his considerable noodle to fight injustice, tyranny and exploitation. By contrast, Holmes is in it for no reason other than Reason. An insufficiently stimulating case will be summarily dismissed as "boring". A Scandal in Bohemia opens with Conan Doyle sidelining feeling as "grit in a sensitive instrument", a spanner in the works of the world's "most perfect reasoning and observing machine". Unlike Who – where, famously, the evil of the Daleks is linked directly to their rejection of human emotion – Conan Doyle paints a hyper-rational universe almost made just for Moffat.

In this context, what Moffat would do with Adler was always going to be interesting. From a certain perspective, Conan Doyle's character is something of a "proto-feminist", a woman of great intellect and formidable agency, who, above all, proves to be a match for Holmes. It's not unproblematic that both author and protagonist respect Adler only because she has a "soul of steel" and "the mind of the most resolute of men". She's not a waste of space, it is suggested, because she escapes the weakness of her sex and can act, symbolically, as a man. But, importantly, she makes her own way in the world. In the climactic scene of Conan Doyle's story, emotion initially leads her to betray herself, and – like all women – when confronted by danger, she protects the thing she cares about (which, according to Holmes, is invariably either babies or jewellery). However, after these events, having had time to reflect coolly, Adler realises she has given herself away and plans the escape by which she gets one over on Holmes.

However, even this ambiguous portrait of female power proved too much for Moffat to stomach. Granted, he allowed her to keep her smarts. But, at the same time, her acumen and agency were undermined every which way. Not-so-subtly channelling the spirit of the predatory femme fatal, Adler's power became, in Moffat's hands, less a matter of brains, and more a matter of knowing "what men like" and how to give it to them; of having them by the sexual short and curlies, or, perhaps more aptly, on a nice short leash. Her masterminding of a cunning criminal plan was, it was revealed late in the day, not her own doing, but dependent on the advice of Holmes's arch nemesis, James Moriarty. A move that, blogger Stavvers noted, neatly reduced her from "an active force to a passive pawn in Moriarty and Holmes's ongoing cock-duelling".

More troubling still, Moffat's Adler blatantly fails to outwit Holmes. Despite identifying as a lesbian, her scheme is ultimately undone by her great big girly crush on Sherlock, an irresistible brain-rot that leads her to trash the security she has fought for from the start of the show with a gesture about as sophisticated – or purposeful – as scrawling love hearts on an exercise book. As a result, Moffat sends Adler out into the world without the information she has always relied on for protection, having made herself entirely vulnerable for the love of a man. Lest we haven't got the point yet, Holmes hammers it home. "Sentiment," he tells us, "is a chemical defect found in the losing side."

And then there was the jaw-dropping finale, which somehow managed to smoosh together a double-bill of two of patriarchy's top-10 fantasies. All those troubled by female sexual power – or the persistent punctuation of orgasmic text alerts – were treated to the sight of the vamp laid low, down on her knees, about to have her block knocked off by a great big sword. And, at the same time, our hero miraculously appeared to save his damsel in distress. Medusa and Perseus, Rapunzel and her prince, all wrapped up in a potent little bundle. Symbolically speaking, it was really quite impressive. But for those of us crazies who like to think that women are, y'know, just regular human beings, it was, politically, really quite regressive.

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Kafria on Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:56 pm

Oh what rot, what happened to simply enjoying the story? Rolling Eyes

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Spoiler:
I have to admit on my first watch through of this I was thinking some of what the coloumnist mentions- primarily that in the original story she gets the better of Holmes and defeats him- when I got to that point in the story in Sherlock and her victory was shortlived and turned to a loss I was a bit shocked and taken aback and not too happy. Also on first viewing I was not happy with the ending- which did seem to reduce this women to a damsel in distress needing the male hero to save her.
However on subsequent viewings it became aparrent to me that firstly Moffat beats about the bush less over Sherlocks reactions to her, his Sherlock I think falls for her, when he defeats her it is not because she is a weak emotional women, it is because he realises his feelings are not unrequited afterall. In this context the end scene is not the hero dashing to the rescue, its Sherlock saving the life of an equal because he believes her to be worth saving, and not because she is a women. Love comes into it, as it doesn in the original (only less obviously so) but like the original I don't think sex ever does or sexual desire- that side of her is not what Sherlock finds worth saving.
Also whilst in the original her defeat of Sherlock comes at the end of the story here it is only the middle in a bigger story. What Moffat gives us is an adaptation of the original Scandal in Bohemia story plus an original sequal woven into it, so her set back at this point makes narrative sense.
So I think on balance- whilst I can see why the reviewer got the impression she did that it is a false one and comes about from a lack of understanding of how Moffat writes female characters. He is been accused of this before several times over the female charcaters in Doctor Who- but the perceived discrimination against women he is accused of hides a lack of understanding of the narrative use he is making of them -his females always show up the weaknesses in the hero and the seeming weakness in the women are eventualy revealed to be either a key to understanding or a strength to have. This is true of both his Who females and his Sherlock ones. Even the mortician with the unrequited love of Sherlock performs this function- her simpering devotion is originally played as something to be laughed at, the silly girl- but Moffat turns it round at the xmas party to show it up as a weakness in Sherlocks character and we see it is not her love that is at fault, its Sherlocks reaction to it. The understanding and sympathy is with her-- so much so even Sherlock knows it.

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Norc on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:26 pm

Spoiler:
I LOVED! Had a bit of a shock when a phonecall saved their life.. I haven't had the time yet to get my head around it all, but I can say I loved it and sat smiling through it all (exept for those sad parts Sad )
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Eldorion on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:31 pm

It definitely takes time to let it all sink in. I had to watch the episode two or three times to really absorb it all. But I love it. Very Happy

Spoiler:
As for the accusations of sexism, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I can understand why having her be rescued by Sherlock at the end could be interpreted as degrading to the character. On the other hand, making her a dominatrix was I thought a perfectly reasonable way of updating the character. An opera singer who has affairs with famous people would hardly be super-scandalous in the way that it was in the original story. Moffat and Co. needed something different and I thought their solution worked very well.
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Norc on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:39 pm

Eldorion wrote:It definitely takes time to let it all sink in. I had to watch the episode two or three times to really absorb it all. But I love it. Very Happy

Spoiler:
As for the accusations of sexism, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I can understand why having her be rescued by Sherlock at the end could be interpreted as degrading to the character. On the other hand, making her a dominatrix was I thought a perfectly reasonable way of updating the character. An opera singer who has affairs with famous people would hardly be super-scandalous in the way that it was in the original story. Moffat and Co. needed something different and I thought their solution worked very well.

I might have to see it again as well.. Razz
Spoiler:
I kind of have to say I don't think there was any sexims in it, and if people do complain about it I'd say they are whiney I see why it is said, but I disagree. As Petty pointed out, it showed that he felt her to be worth rescuing.

Spoiler:
btw.. loved the bit in buckingham palace when John realizes Sherlock is naked.. in buckingham palace lol! I love the humour in it! Very Happy


Last edited by Norc on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : realized the last one there should be in the spoiler thingi :P)
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:05 pm

Caught half an episode on the telly today, looked promising! Very Happy Won't read any of the spoilers yet, but this is a show I'm looking forward to Smile

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Amarië on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:10 pm

Watch your step at Fjordlandia Viking Bar & kaffistove then, you might trip over some spoilers there. Besides one (or two-ish) tiny detail(s), I am head over heals in love with Sherlock and the whole show. I love you

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Norc on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:17 pm

I am putting this one in a spoiler bar, just in case, but it really isn't a spoiler. Just a nerdy violin fact Wink
Spoiler:
Sherlock clearly wasn't playing the violin. I know, it is much to ask. It wasn't the worst "pretending-to-play-violining" I've seen, cus his finger was relaxed and he held it correctly and quite naturally, it was just that the bow was not int rythm.. if you know what I mean. And when he did such a great job making it look like he knew what he was doing, I feel they could've played the music as he "played" so he could try to do the bow in the right rythm. apart from that, I am really impressed ;D
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Amarië on Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:24 am

Spoiler:
Have to agree with you there. I was impressed too. At times I wonder if the actors really know how to play, and it's the sound mixers who get it wrong.

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Norc on Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:57 am

It looks that way, but I don't think so. He surely has it looking good though, so who knows Wink
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Eldorion on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:14 pm

The Guardian had a very interesting article about Sherlock's violin playing shortly after the episode aired. Smile

Spoiler:
In short, Nora is right: Cumberbatch is not a violinist so they hired someone else to play and the actor tried to mimic her movements while the camera was rolling.
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Amarië on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:29 pm

It was clear that he had done his homework. Nod

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Norc on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:55 pm

Eldorion wrote:The Guardian had a very interesting article about Sherlock's violin playing shortly after the episode aired. Smile

Spoiler:
In short, Nora is right: Cumberbatch is not a violinist so they hired someone else to play and the actor tried to mimic her movements while the camera was rolling.

Spoiler:
yes I thought so too. It really looked like he had watched someone play, because as I said, he held it correctly and his wrist wasn't bent (apart from one second of a scene hardly noticable) and he even tried a vibrato Smile (and no, it's not a vibrator.) But.. well. I'm impressed Smile he did a good job, and very smart that when he plays he often stands with the back towards the camera. Very clever Wink though, if one know what to look for, one can see that he can't play.
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Kafria on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:17 am

So how would you describe Sherlock?

(just a note, although this itself doesn't have footage past season one other vids on the channel do!- you have been warned!)


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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Amarië on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:31 am

LOVED IT! XD

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Norc on Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:56 pm

lol!
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by halfwise on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:51 am

For those who don't have the DVD version, they have the writers providing commentary over the first episode.

What really stuck out to me was they describe Benedict Cumberbatch as being nothing like Sherlock Holmes in person, in fact they describe him as a bit of a lovable bumbler. Also that each actor who read for Watson produced a different reaction from B.C., and part of finding the character of Holmes seen on screen came through finding the right Watson. It's fun to think how completely the actors inhabit the part.

It was remarkable just how well they knew the tidbits of Doyle's canon, as well as all the film versions. They made the interesting decision to place equal weight on everything produced on Holmes. Also fascinating tidbits on their decision-making process while updating. Doyle's Holmes was constantly firing off telegrams, and when the telephone arrived one was installed in 221B. A very computer savy Holmes was the modern analog. Most adaptations like to make reference to the cocaine use, but they noted it had a very different flavor when translated into the modern age. In victorian times cocaine use had a hint of exoticism about it, but today it's mainly associated with wastrels. So to be more true to the spirit of the original, it was cut.

I found the commentary hard to follow most of the time, I think because they didn't bother to get anyone competent doing the sound for them - it wasn't crystal clear like the LoTR commentaries.

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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:21 am

Moffat and Gatiss who created the show are both huge fans of the originals and know them inside out- I listened to them on a radio interview going into great detail on the originals. I have mixed feelings about dropping Holmes drug use- the first series hinted that he had a problem in the past with drugs (most notably the episode where Lestrade searches his flat) but I felt the second series completely shied away from this and switched the emphahsis of that aspect to cigarrettes.
That's fine if you are addressing the issue of addiction, but Holmes was never an addict as such- he used it to stimulate his mind between cases because he went crazy otherwise. Cigarrettes do not have the same effect at all and I feel if anything is missing from their version of Holmes it is that side to him.

The Brett version covered it excellently I thought;


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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Eldorion on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:37 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have mixed feelings about dropping Holmes drug use- the first series hinted that he had a problem in the past with drugs (most notably the episode where Lestrade searches his flat) but I felt the second series completely shied away from this and switched the emphahsis of that aspect to cigarrettes.

I actually felt that the second series addressed this at least as much in the first episode (A Scandal in Belgravia) right after Irene Adler's apparent death. Mycroft did give Sherlock a cigarette, but it was apparently a test, as referred to in the phone call between Mycroft and John, to see if it was a "danger night". It's also implied that John and Mrs Hudson had searched Sherlock's room for drugs and that they were very concerned he would relapse. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but that's what I got from the episode. I don't think came up elsewhere in the second series but I'm not sure if the first series mentioned it outside the very first episode either.
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Re: Sherlock - BBC

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:03 am

I thought that about that episode myself Eldo until the scene when he is hunting about the flat despertely looking and it turns out to be for cigs. It seemed a safe option to me, it could be read as you did but there is no hard reference to confirm it- only reference to cigs.

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