Is God evil - or just lazy?

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:30 pm

Theres a difference between just loving someone and loving them romantically
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:32 pm

You love your parents and siblings right? Does that mean you want to marry or have sex with any of them?
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:32 pm

Lorient Avandi wrote:If you gave someone something, and they completely misused it, would you be happy about it, especially if it was the most important thing you had ever given them?

If I give someone something then it's their's to do what they please with. So long as they aren't hurting anyone, it's completely up to them. Besides, how is it a "misuse" of anything to be with the person you love (the person you love romantically and are in love with, I should clarify)?
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:49 pm

I dont want to marry or have sex with family because of social boundaries and genetic ones, but the truth is where those social bounds dont hold however history has shown us sex with your family can be viewed as entirely normal, several societies including Egyptian and several European ones have gone through such phases historically. This would seem to imply that there is no such thing as releationship love and family love just love and merely social bounds and ettique (and in the modern age the knowledge of genetic mutations).
Now having been born and raised in the manner I have I find the notion of sex with family repugnant. Had I however for arguments sake been born 3000 years ago next in line to be Pharoah I would probably have ended up marrying my sister or something and thought nothing of it.
Love is love. You might not like that but historical events would seem to bear it out as true. And if you take Genesis as an accurate account then the offspring of Adam and Eve must have been incestous as there was no one else about to have sex with.
However I do find it worrying you would equate two people of the same sex having a physical releationship with incest. The two are not related you know.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:56 pm

I'm sorry to say this but love is not just love. Just because I love my best freind, who's a guy does not mean I want to get married to him
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:02 am

No it doesn't- you clearly are not sexually attracted to him also. Love works hand in hand with lust when sex becomes involved. However had you been born gay you might find him sexually atractive in which case your love would no longer be platonic. Doesn't make you evil or bad or wrong. Just in love (and in lust). If you think its fundementally wrong then the only person to blame for it is God as if He was so set against it nobody would be born attracted to people of the same sex. But they are so presumably He doesn't mind. A world in which people regardless of gender can love both physically and spiritually one and another has got to be a better place than one where they don't.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:30 am

People are not born gay, they choose to be gay.
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:37 am

Laughing
Sorry Lorient but such a preposterous ridiculous statement canot be left unchallenged. Some people are born with an attraction to their own sex. The idea that it is just a life style choice is laughable and so ignorant and nieve it almost defies making a retort. Really you need to get out more or something if you honestly believe that. That is no more ludicrous than if you were insisiting the earth was flat or that the sun went round it. Words fail me in the face of a statement such as that...

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:44 am

It's true, I believe, this has nothing to do with my religion, that people are not born sexually attracted to anyone. I think it has to do with the way they are raised and the influences around them. If anything, People are born straight, then dueto influences or their own choices they may change
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:50 am

Humans are clearly born, as is every other animal on the planet, with a built in sex drive with comes into play during puberty- makes no differenc eif thats a human, a monkey or a dog. Continuation of the species is the main priority of any living creature. However once a successful ratio of breeding is reached there is no evolutionary risk from homosexuality so it can and does happen, not just in humans but in almost every mammal species. Of which humans are but one. Or does your religion not include us as being just another animal on this planet?

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:00 am

I missed one of your posts Lorient about this ancient civilasation in America. You say "I do not know why there is no evidence"- and obvious answer to that does spring to mind.
For cities to slip under the wave there would evidence. Most of the sea bed around coasts is well mapped now and the rising and falling of sea levels since the end of the Ice Age is fairly well worked out.
If there is no evidence on the land of such a civilasation, no archeological record of it, no impliments, tools of the people found, no records, no DNA evidenc ein the indigenous population and no evidence of cities under the coast perhaps, just perhaps thats because they were never there in the first place.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:42 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote: Laughing
Sorry Lorient but such a preposterous ridiculous statement canot be left unchallenged. Some people are born with an attraction to their own sex. The idea that it is just a life style choice is laughable and so ignorant and nieve it almost defies making a retort. Really you need to get out more or something if you honestly believe that. That is no more ludicrous than if you were insisiting the earth was flat or that the sun went round it. Words fail me in the face of a statement such as that...

That's actually a disturbingly common opinion in many circles here in the US. It's commonly used as a justification for discrimination against gays (as if it's okay to refuse to hire people or let them marry because of what they do in their personal lives even if it was a choice). Defenders of this view usually point to "ex-gay" therapy as evidence that this is a choice, despite ex-gay therapy using classic brainwashing and control techniques to manipulate feelings of (usually religious) guilt, and the subjects of said therapy often relapsing.

Needless to say, I agree with you, Petty, that sexual feelings -- not just homosexuality but all sexual feelings; straight people don't choose to be straight either -- are innate and that they arise quite without choice and sometimes without even conscious understanding until much later during puberty. There are so many problems with the idea that people choose to be gay that I'm not even sure where to begin.
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:45 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:It's true, I believe, this has nothing to do with my religion, that people are not born sexually attracted to anyone. I think it has to do with the way they are raised and the influences around them. If anything, People are born straight, then dueto influences or their own choices they may change

Then why would people born into repressive, conservative religious homes "choose" to be gay? What environmental factors would encourage them to make that choice, and more importantly, why would they want to be ostracized from their family in such a way?
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:49 am

Good point Eldo- the examples are so numerous it is barely worth listing them. I'm sorry Lorient but your view is one born out of ignorance.

I asked ealrer "Or does your religion not include us as being just another animal on this planet?" And reading back I would also like to ask this question of Kafria. As it occired to me as someone who teaches science that given the closness of DNA with oother mamals and the ability to trace back through DNA to commmon ancestors- do you think God made humans as modern humans or did we evolve along with everything else.
And to throw that out with a more genral query to those with a religous belief what about the other earlier hominids? Homo erectuss? Neanderthal Man etc? Where do they fit as God fails to mention in Genesis He had already had a few goes.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:13 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Good point Eldo- the examples are so numerous it is barely worth listing them. I'm sorry Lorient but your view is one born out of ignorance.

Well, to be fair to Lorient, he is only 15, and it's unfortunately not difficult to live that long in the US without meeting (or without realizing you have met) out gay people in certain areas, so it's quite easy to have odd views about homosexuality depending on where you grew up. I try to be friendly and informative and hopefully shed a little light on the topic of ignorance; I don't know how successful I am but I do my best. Smile
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:29 am

Quite right Eldo- easy to forget the youthfulness of some in Formumshire. Thought a lot of stupid things myself at that age in fairness, even believed some of them.
However occasionally I feel sometimes bluntness is the only appropriate response to some views.
There is no offence meant of course- that is after all the joy of this place. Lorient is entitled to his view as I am entitled to think its bonkers. This being Forumshire we can still converse however despite such things.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:35 am

Agreed. And I'm glad that this is a place where we can all come together despite our differences to chat and hang out. Very Happy
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:59 am

Ok, I have met gay people. Some even went to my school, and it's not like I was justa jerk to them or anything. Humans and other mammals are driven to reproduce, and find a mate with whom they can do this. Logically, all humans would be born with a sexual attraction to theopposits sex, because they can only reproduce with that gender. Why in the world would they be born gay? They choose to be that way, just like those idiot people who are attracted to children. It is their fault, or the fault of influences around them. I don't hate gays, I just dislike the way they are. Should they be treated fairly, absolutely. I personally don't believe they should get married but they should be legally able to. This is the only thing I dont think they should do: serve in the military.

Oh and petty, this civilization could have been in the Americas, ido believe that for most of the BOM they were in central America, where there are a great deal of ruins and such. Many of these civilizations had already dissapeared befor explorers got here, so we can only guess as to what was happening.
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:23 am

First and foremost, comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is completely uncalled for and unacceptable in polite discussion regardless of whether either or both of them are choices. I really have nothing more to say to that absurdity other than that it is a gross violation of the "Don't be a douche" rule.

Second, despite what might seem "logical" to you, the fact of the matter is that homosexuality is prevalent throughout the Animal kingdom, including in species not generally thought of as capable of human-level thought or decision-making. The fact that homosexuality does not correspond to your simplistic interpretation of the theory of evolution does not invalidate the observational evidence or the problems with your view (which I note that you ignored).


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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Tinuviel on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:24 am

I may be Catholic (and a devote one at that!) but I have the upmost respect for gay individuals. I know several of them, and they're no different from the rest of us except for relationships. A good person is a good person, no matter who they end up in love with.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:28 am

"they choose to be that way, just like those idiot people who are attracted to children. "- Lorient

You are seriously puttng homosexuals in the same category as pedophiles? I cannot believe you could be so bigoted, you seem so reasonable otherwise.
Alexander the Great was one of the finest Miltary Minds the world has ever seen and one of its greatest soldiers and he put statues up to his gay lover everywhere he went so I have no idea where this no gays in the military thing finds its basis- ridiculous. As if under fire and in a war you are worried the guy next to you might be thinking of giving you a kiss! That's ridiculous.
You are young and clearly have been indoctornated to view homosexuals as something to be offended by and if I may say you seem scared of the concept too, as if it is in some way a threat to you or your way of life as only those in fear can hold such self evidently false ideals and hold them up as a virtue.
How can a religous person, whose God is a God of love hold such bile and vile contempt for people who are simply in love? It beggars belief.

Well said Tin. And Eldo. Facts will win out. As will tolerance and understanding.


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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:33 am

I am so glad I grew up in this part of the world. It seems there are parts of America whose beliefs are no less primitive, brutal and dangerous than the worst sort of Islamist fundamentalist.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:39 am

Also, just a few minutes of Googling yields the following results for "evolutionary explanation for homosexuality". It's still an area of ongoing study, but the hypotheses that have been floated are fascinating.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/natural-history-the-modern-mind/200906/the-johnny-depp-effect-evolutionary-explanation-homosexu

Overly simplified, this "tipping-point" model (originally introduced by G. E. Hutchinson in 1959, and then later popularized by Jim McKnight in 1997 and Edward Miller in 2000) posits that genes associated with homosexuality confer fitness benefits in their heterosexual carriers. If only a few of these alleles are inherited, a males' reproductive success is enhanced via the expression of attractive, albeit feminine traits, such as kindness, sensitivity, empathy, and tenderness. However, if many of these alleles are inherited, a "tipping point" is reached at which even mate preferences become "feminized," meaning males are attracted to other males. In explaining this model, Miller asked readers to imagine a genetic system in which there are five different genes that place an individual along a masculine-feminine continuum. Each of the five genes has two alleles, one that pulls the individual to the masculine side and one that pulls to the feminine side. If a man inherited all of the feminine-pulling alleles (of which he has a 3.125% chance: .55), he will become homosexual. If he inherited less than all five of the feminine-pulling alleles, however, he would not be homosexual. Although originally proposed in simple form in 1959, this model was finally empirically tested in 2008 and 2009.

http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_gay_animal_kingdom/

According to Roughgarden, gayness is a necessary side effect of getting along. Homosexuality evolved in tandem with vertebrate societies, in which a motley group of individuals has to either live together or die alone. In fact, Roughgarden even argues that homosexuality is a defining feature of advanced animal communities, which require communal bonds in order to function. “The more complex and sophisticated a social system is,” she writes, “the more likely it is to have homosexuality intermixed with heterosexuality.”

Japanese macaques, an old world primate, illustrate this principle perfectly. Macaque society revolves around females, who form intricate dominance hierarchies within a given group. Males are transient. To help maintain the necessary social networks, female macaques engage in rampant lesbianism. These friendly copulations, which can last up to four days, form the bedrock of macaque society, preventing unnecessary violence and aggression. Females that sleep together will even defend each other from the unwanted advances of male macaques. In fact, behavioral scientist Paul Vasey has found that females will choose to mate with another female, as opposed to a horny male, 92.5% of the time. While this lesbianism probably decreases reproductive success for macaques in the short term, in the long run it is clearly beneficial for the species, since it fosters social stability. “Same-sex sexuality is just another way of maintaining physical intimacy,” Roughgarden says. “It’s like grooming, except we have lots of pleasure neurons in our genitals. When animals exhibit homosexual behavior, they are just using their genitals for a socially significant purpose.”

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100204144551.htm

Past research has shown that the fa'afafine are much more altruistically inclined toward their nieces and nephews than either Samoan women or heterosexual men. They are willing to babysit a lot, tutor their nieces and nephews in art and music, and help out financially -- paying for medical care and education and so forth. In a new study, the scientists set out to unravel the psychology of the fa'afafine, to see if their altruism is targeted specifically at kin rather than kids in general.

They recruited a large sample of fa'afafine, and comparable samples of women and heterosexual men. They gave them all a series of questionnaires, measuring their willingness to help their nieces and nephews in various ways -- caretaking, gifts, teaching -- and also their willingness to do these things for other, unrelated kids. The findings, reported on-line this week in the journal Psychological Science, lend strong support to the kin selection idea. Compared to Samoan women and heterosexual men, the fa'afafine showed a much weaker link between their avuncular -- or uncle like -- behavior and their altruism toward kids generally. This cognitive dissociation, the scientists argue, allows the fa'afafine to allocate their resources more efficiently and precisely to their kin -- and thus enhance their own evolutionary prospects.

For more on the evolutionary explanation of altruism, another phenomenon that intuitively seems counter to evolution, see here. Relatedly, TalkOrigins.org is a great reference in general, and in the Information Age there is no excuse for not doing research. Wink
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 am

I have no problem with gay people as people, I just don't particularly like the way ther are. The only thing I was saying about the pedophiles is that: they claim they are born that way, just like gays. That was the only thing I could think of to compare it to. So don't go saying that I'm a jerk who has no respect for gay people.
Oh and petty: soldiers think about that more than you think. There may be a lot of gays, but there are more straights, and a lot of them absolutely hate gays. It's their own protection. It's pretty chaotic on the frontlines, things happen, there are misfires and friendly fires. Some may be intentional, others may not.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:44 am

Cross-posted with Petty there. Smile Religious bigotry is ugly and dangerous no matter which form it takes, I have to agree, and I sympathize with people like Kafria and Tinuviel who are reasonable but have to share certain labels with bigots.

Lorient, I have nothing against you, and while your statements about homosexuality offend me on a deep level I hope that you will take the opportunity to read and learn and perhaps broaden your mind. I'm not here to tell people what they can or can't believe/think so long as they're mindful of the few basic rules we have in place. Smile
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