Is God evil - or just lazy?

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Ally on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:35 pm

As a Christian myself, the way I see it is that evil and suffering draws you closer to God; in a perfect world why would anyone turn to God? Evil, suffering and pain makes strong people, strong people who (god willing...) enjoy a deep joy and true happiness in Heaven.

Did God create Evil? Well maybe, who knows, though if we take evil as consequence of human free will (given by God obviously...) which led us to sin. Maybe it's arguable that if you take this stance it's indirectly created by God, but evil is just a consequence anyway of having a loving God who gives us free will, a choice.

Trust me, every earthquake and every Tsumani, every dying kid I read about in the papers, the beaten and raped kid you allude to in your opening post-they all make me doubt this supposedly "loving God". I can not justify God's inaction in these cases, I can't accept free will as an answer for everything, and I suppose it comes down to what you believe after the debate- do you accept God has a plan for everyone and he knows what he's doing, the suffering and torment people go through is not actually useless, he doesn't exist, or he does and allows suffering without purpose. Hmmm...the whole thing makes my mind hurt...who knows the mind of a God, huh?

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Tinuviel on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:32 am

Ally, I couldn't have said it any better myself (literally!!!)

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:40 am

Tinuviel wrote:God doesn't do the bad things to us, we do. And sure, he doesn't intervene most of the time, but partially that's because we don't listen to him or notice he's even there. Also, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, for sure! He can't hold our hands through everything.

By allowing natural disasters, criminals, and other catastrophes to cause untold pain and death, God is complicit in human suffering. He doesn't need to "hold our hands through everything", but any person who has the ability to stop the murder, rape, etc. of millions and does nothing is morally at fault, even if they are not at the same level of fault as the perpetrators themselves.
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:47 am

I think you guys haves misunderstanding of god. Hes not a magician, He doesn't do all this stuff you think. He can't just stop a robber or rapist. Just because he doesn't interfere doesn't mean he doesnt want to.
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:54 am

I'm not familiar with Mormon theology, but I'm talking about the generic Christian (and in particular Protestant, since that's what I'm most familiar with) God. And that conception of God can do anything, since he is omnipotent. Stopping robbers or whatever would require a miracle, but that's hardly unheard of. Razz
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:42 am

Does God want to intercede to help an Innocent, but cant. Shocked Why? Suspect

The torment of Innocents, allowed by a "wanting" but "can't" God, is surely every bit as reprensible as if it was Me standing by allowing it to happen. If I said, "It's for the benefit of that Innocent's Eternal Soul", would anyone forgive me? I wouldn't.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:30 am

"I think you guys haves misunderstanding of god. Hes not a magician, He doesn't do all this stuff you think."- Lorient

I'm basing my version of God in this discussion on the character of God which emerges from the Bible, that is still the main book of all Christians isn't it? And that God made everything right at the start including all the animals etc- in which case it was His choice to make so many deadly things, His choice to make disease and germs, His choice to allow crippled and damaged children to be born, His choice to punish humans with sickness, death and diffiuclty in child birth. He made the Serpent and by default the first lies, the first deceits. He created a predatorial universe for us to live in- hard to see that as loving and not psychotic.
I personally have never been the stand back and watch someone else suffer right in front of me type. If my moral code doesn't allow for that why should I be interested in worshipping a God whose moral code does? A God whose moral code condemns homosexuals to eternal damnation for how they are and who they fall in love with? A God who uses threats of punishments and pain to get His way? A God who until the time of Christ was perfectly happy to have animals slaughtered in His name as sacrifices (and indeed demanded it). A God who when some of His own followers showed doubt and fell back to worship of another God had hundreds slaughtered as a warning? A God who upon the invasion of the Holy Land orders the murder of "Every man, women, child and old person" (Deuteronomy).
No the Christian God does not meet very high moral standards at all. Is He deserving of worship? A God whose own creation has attained a higher moral understanding than He has? I don't think so.
Indeed even if undeniable proof of this God were made I would still not bend my knee to such a one. Scots don't bend their knee easily to anyone and certainly not someone who is threatening us if we don't!

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:00 pm

Psalm 137 says it all for me. The Hebrews and their hopes for Salvaton by their Tribal God. Oh Our God will kill all our enemies, Man, Woman and Babe. (Evil babies, I assume!) "By the rivers of Babylon..."

(Allah's no different, nor any of the other Gods known to Man).

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Ally on Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:54 pm

Lorient Avandi wrote:I think you guys haves misunderstanding of god. Hes not a magician, He doesn't do all this stuff you think. He can't just stop a robber or rapist. Just because he doesn't interfere doesn't mean he doesnt want to.

I think I understand where you are coming from; we are all God's children and he allows us to make mistakes. Without making mistakes how do children learn? Just because we make mistakes doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, or that God actually wants us to make mistakes, only that he wants us to learn. What would we be if God allowed no evil, a 'perfect world', no war, no disease, we would all be slaves with no power to make choices and decisions on our own!! God wants us to do good, he had said that it's the right choice, but I don't know, maybe sin is around is to show the wrong choices made waaay back with Adam and Eve!!!


Maybe...


or maybe not I guess.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Tinuviel on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:46 pm

Ally wrote:
Lorient Avandi wrote:I think you guys haves misunderstanding of god. Hes not a magician, He doesn't do all this stuff you think. He can't just stop a robber or rapist. Just because he doesn't interfere doesn't mean he doesnt want to.

I think I understand where you are coming from; we are all God's children and he allows us to make mistakes. Without making mistakes how do children learn? Just because we make mistakes doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, or that God actually wants us to make mistakes, only that he wants us to learn. What would we be if God allowed no evil, a 'perfect world', no war, no disease, we would all be slaves with no power to make choices and decisions on our own!! God wants us to do good, he had said that it's the right choice, but I don't know, maybe sin is around is to show the wrong choices made waaay back with Adam and Eve!!!


Maybe...


or maybe not I guess.


And piggy backing off of that, without bad things in the world (regardless of God) how can good people rise to the occation?? God isn't as involved as he used to be, back in the bible. In the new testament, he's hardly involved because he sends Christ down from heaven. Now asking for everyone to believe in Jesus as well as God is a stretch, but since Jesus Christ came here, we have a living God to worship and therefore God does not need to manifest himself as often.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:51 pm

Ally wrote:What would we be if God allowed no evil, a 'perfect world', no war, no disease, we would all be slaves with no power to make choices and decisions on our own!! God wants us to do good, he had said that it's the right choice, but I don't know, maybe sin is around is to show the wrong choices made waaay back with Adam and Eve!!!

How would we be slaves if God did away with natural disasters and took a hand in punishing egregious evil-doers? I think it's disingenuous to conflate "stop horrible evil" and "control everything". No one is saying that God, if he exists, should take away all choices from humanity. However, allowing criminals to destroy other people's lives does not protect free will, unless you think that criminals' "right" to choose to hurt others is more important than victims' right to live their lives freely and unmolested. And natural disasters have nothing to do with free will at all.

Tinuviel wrote:And piggy backing off of that, without bad things in the world (regardless of God) how can good people rise to the occation??

Can you imagine what would happen if someone who witnessed, say, massive genocide somewhere like Rwanda or Yugoslavia, when asked why they stood back and did nothing, defended themselves by saying that they allowed such massive evil to occur because it would give good people an opportunity to do good things during the rebuilding afterwards? Such a person would be condemned as sick, selfish, and out of touch with morality; and rightly so. Why should God, who is infinitely more capable of stopping such crimes, be held to a lesser standard.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I think these are important questions. Smile


Last edited by Eldorion on Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Tinuviel on Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:32 pm

Tinuviel wrote:ion
[quote="Tinuviel"]And piggy backing off of that, without bad things in the world (regardless of God) how can good people rise to the occation??

Can you imagine what would happen if someone who witnessed, say, massive genocide somewhere like Rwanda or Yugoslavia, when asked why they stood back and did nothing, defended themselves by saying that they allowed such massive evil to occur because it would give good people an opportunity to do good things during the rebuilding afterwards? Such a person would be condemned as sick, selfish, and out of touch with morality; and rightly so. Why should God, who is infinitely more capable of stopping such crimes, be held to a lesser standard? Question

I feel like you've kind of twisted what I said around. I'm not saying that it can be used as an excuse at all. I'm saying that without bad things happening, then there would be nothing to distinguish good from bad. "When everybody's super, than no one is." When everyone is the same, how can we grow? Like the book Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke. A tree can't survive if it has never been beaten by the wind (that's a proven fact!) If we were all meant to be perfect, than we wouldn't need to be here on earth, and earth would be heaven.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:50 pm

Tinuviel wrote:I feel like you've kind of twisted what I said around. I'm not saying that it can be used as an excuse at all. I'm saying that without bad things happening, then there would be nothing to distinguish good from bad. "When everybody's super, than no one is." When everyone is the same, how can we grow? Like the book Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke. A tree can't survive if it has never been beaten by the wind (that's a proven fact!) If we were all meant to be perfect, than we wouldn't need to be here on earth, and earth would be heaven.

Speaking of twisting words ... how does one go from "God should step in to prevent particularly horrible evils" to "God should make everyone be perfect"? The two statements are completely different, but people keep acting like they're effectively the same.
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:46 pm

"I'm saying that without bad things happening, then there would be nothing to distinguish good from bad."- Tin


What would be so wrong about that? Why would God want bad things to happen? Just to make us stronger is a bit of a cop out if we are only the way we are because of how He made us in the first place! Talk about a no-win scenario.
If the big plan is we live on earth and the good ones go to heaven why bother? Gods omnipotent He already knows who the good ones are so why waste all this time and suffering? Why not just not have bothered with the bad folks at all, skipped the whole misery in the universe bit and put everyone in Heaven?

But for me the most telling reason for a lack of a God in the Biblical sense is that the excuses (including those given here) handily describe a universe such as you might get if it was a universe without a God. He doesn't interfere, its because of free will, you have to have bad in order to know good- all excuses it seems to me to get roud the fact the universe appears to act in a very godless manner. Don't you think if there was a God we would by now have more solid proofs than some 2000 year old stories of dubious authorship?

"but since Jesus Christ came here, we have a living God to worship"- Tin

Umm is that not blasphemy and woshipping of idols? Shocked


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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Tinuviel on Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:05 pm

Evil or Very Mad Your missing my point. Ah, o well.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:10 pm

Do explain further then Tin. I am fascinated by how Christians believe.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:33 pm

Think about this, if the world was this Perfect place you want it to be, we wouldnt have free will. Lucifer proposed doing just what you want god to do make things "perfect" he wanted to make everyone do the right thing and have a perfect world. That may sound good but it is pretty cruel. Think of this: if the world was "perfect" there would be no theifs, murderers or rapists, but you wouldn't get to do what you want. There would be no books or movies with any violence at all, no swearing, vulgar comments, no drinking, smoking, no gays, etc. Most of the things we do, especially for fun, are usually bad in some way.
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:08 pm

Back to my first post here. What "good" does an Innocent get from being cruelly treated? Why make an Innocent suffer? Maybe, given we have Free Will (?), shouldn't God give an Innoncent a chance to Sin first, then treat them as badly as you like. No one has even directly addressed my point. Not even brought that silly Catholic argument about humans ALL being born in Sin. What, babies blamed for something Adam and Eve did after God sent the Serpent to cosy up to the naive beings - that God Himself made naive. A God like that can only be hated, surely. Get scared into loving Him if you must, I can't. (I speak in "creative" terms, of course, I've joined in your "God" fantasy only to argue from within. Silly really, but it's fun).

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:32 am

They are not borne into sin. Catholics don't have it right. The serpent was not sent by god. It was actually Satan. Why would he punish the serpent if he sent it? This Innocent argument isn't getting you anywhere either. So what, they may suffer for 1-100 years but they'll be completely happy and well for billions of years in the celestial kingdom. I'm sorry that they suffer but it happens.
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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Orwell on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:36 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:They are not borne into sin. Catholics don't have it right. The serpent was not sent by god. It was actually Satan. Why would he punish the serpent if he sent it? This Innocent argument isn't getting you anywhere either. So what, they may suffer for 1-100 years but they'll be completely happy and well for billions of years in the celestial kingdom. I'm sorry that they suffer but it happens.

What's the point of torturing a child in God's eyes? Why not exempt that child, at least, from the mental and physical torment it goes through? Give me God's motive, please. I'm a cop, I'm always interested in motive. Does God have a motive for not helping the truly innocent?

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:38 am

Who did make the serpent then? I thought God made everything in Creation which must have included a talking serpent who lied a lot. Why He would make such a thing and then choose to house it in the very Garden He is putting the first very nieve humans who have never encoutered a liar before is beyond me. And then to put a forbidden tree in there too- well thats just foolhardy. For an omnipotent God that seems a bit shortisighted. In fact worse it seems like a set up.

Good point Orwell.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Orwell on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:47 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Who did make the serpent then? I thought God made everything in Creation which must have included a talking serpent who lied a lot. Why He would make such a thing and then choose to house it in the very Garden He is putting the first very nieve humans who have never encoutered a liar before is beyond me. And then to put a forbidden tree in there too- well thats just foolhardy. For an omnipotent God that seems a bit shortisighted. In fact worse it seems like a set up.

It does make for a good myth, though, which Lewis could borrow from to use in Narnia. Very Happy

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Lorient Avandi on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:50 am

It was Satan in the form of a serpent. What satan did was his own choice. Also, the Fall was part of gods plan it had to happen for us to be born, Adam and eve could not have children because they didn't know how to until they took the fruit. Also with the suffering child thing, they would die, sparing them from all that pain if not for medicine which is man's creation. It was man who decided to make medicine, god did not just develop it out of midair

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Orwell on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:54 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:It was Satan in the form of a serpent. What satan did was his own choice. Also, the Fall was part of gods plan it had to happen for us to be born, Adam and eve could not have children because they didn't know how to until they took the fruit. Also with the suffering child thing, they would die, sparing them from all that pain if not for medicine which is man's creation. It was man who decided to make medicine, god did not just develop it out of midair

Why did God let him in for? I wouldn't have let him in my garden.

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Re: Is God evil - or just lazy?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:56 am

I buy it as myth fine- just not in anyway a likely account of how the life on this planet came about. Its clearly in the face of the scientific explanation a simple story by comparison. That churches world wide still preach it as absolute truth, that people try to get it taught in schools as actual history, that some people even kill for this belief is bonkers however.

Surely man only made medicine to reduce the suffering casued by the choices God made when He punished Adam and Eve for talking to the most evil thing in creation which He let live in the same Garden as them? You'd think at least a warning would have been in line "If you see a talking snake don't listen to him, he's a right liar-don't listen to a word he says. I made him on an off day."

It seems to me the serpent in the Genesis tale is the good guy. God wants humans as slaves "to till the earth" and make him wine. He doesnt want us to have knwledge or understanding- we get that becasue the serpent tells us God is not being upfront. And once humans attain knowledge God punishes us for all eternity for it.

Now its not suprising this is how the story seems given Gensis is clearly based on the much older Summerian creation story. In which the serpent is Enki saviour of mankind, represented by a serpent which in old religions represents wisdom, knowledge and medicine. God, El is the bad guy of the piece.

edit add- He's also still pretty pissed by the timeof Noah as in the Summerian version its El again who unleashes the flood and Enki who saves the humans by warning Noah.

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