Power of the Númenóreans

well, the name "hobbit" is very original! Unless it actually comes from something else...?

We are all of course familiar with the origin story of "in a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit" as just appearing out of nowhere in Tolkien's mind when he wrote it down. According to Wikipedia he may have been influenced the Denham Tracts which appeared around 1850 and listed a number of hobgoblin like creatures including hobbits, and which in turn was based on an earlier list from the 1500's. It's very possible Tolkien had read one these sources, did not recall doing so, but with his mind for words that particular one may have stuck in his head.

But nobody knows, and Tolkien himself admitted it may have been derivative though he clearly remembers it appearing out of the blue in his mind. The term 'hol-bytla' is supposed to come from 'hole builder' in old English, but the sources I see quote Tolkien on this, and nothing else. If so, given his propensity with temporal changes of language it very likely could have been an unconscious derivation of hole builder that just appeared in his mind as though independent.

Fafnir the Dragon speaks (Volsung Saga) for example, transformed though he was in the accounts I can recall at the moment.



Holbytla was a purposed invention to help support the conceit surrounding the word Hobbit -- since 'Hobbit' itself became an invented translation (when the conceit of translation itself arose), Tolkien decided to 'explain' its 'English' form.

Very inventive!

Ah yes, one of Tolkien's main sources! Serves me right for never having sat through the whole 15 hours of the Ring of the Nibelung.

I did see an obscure reference to Tolkien having made up the Old English, but I didn't quite understand it. Thanks for clarifying.

I'll add that Old English hol 'cave, hole, den...' is attested, and bytla is noted as only or mainly occurring in poetical texts, and said to '= bylda' which is explained as 'builder? Householder?' (Clark Hall, A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary), along with bytlan, bytlian (or gebytlian) 'to build', erect.'


But the clue for Holbytla is found in Appendix F ('if that name...'): '... and Hobbit provides a word that might well be a worn down form of holbytla, if that name had occured in our own ancient language.' This is intended to mirror the real words used back then: kuduk (translated 'Hobbit'), noted as seemingly likely to be a worn down form of kud-dukan (translated 'Holbytla').

I assume then, that no ancient English text has surfaced with the compound holbytla... yet

Halfwise - you managed to completely turn the tide of the conversation.... and everyone ignored my post.

If there was a proper crying (not the cutting an onion one) or suicide emoticon it would be being used right now.

He does that Lance. The trick is to tie his feet up in a knot, he falls over and you spring into action with your typing finger.

btw does Hobgoblin mean Little Goblin?

Hob is an old shortened form of Robert or Robin. The original hob-goblin was supposed to be associated to the devil- whose name you should not say so this creature went under the disguised name Robin Goodfellow. Which in turn got cut down to hobgoblin.
Shakespeare has Robin Goodfellow in a play under his other name, Puck.

Mrs Figg wrote: btw does Hobgoblin mean Little Goblin?

In Tolkien's world 'Hobgoblin' refers to a larger kind of goblin, although JRRT himself once stated (in a letter): '... the statement that hobgoblins were 'a larger kind' [of goblins] is the reverse of the original truth.'

squeaks. Cool! ((( first Loremaster reply post ))))

Lancebloke wrote:Halfwise - you managed to completely turn the tide of the conversation.... and everyone ignored my post.

If there was a proper crying (not the cutting an onion one) or suicide emoticon it would be being used right now.

Now look. You made an eminently reasonable statement that concluded the Numenorean questions with no real controversy, I can assume that part of the conversation is finished, right?

Not unlike Napoleon marching against the British, then he suddenly falls through a hole in the ground. His commanders might stop, look down, shrug their shoulders, and say "Right, ...anybody know of any nice resort towns around here?"

Just read back your post Lance and I think you suffered the problem of being right! you posed a question but also gave the answer. So noone added to it as it seemed to have self resolved itself!
On a related point we had an interesting discussion a while back (the um conclusions of which I can't entirely remember ) on which of the Numereons Kings became the nine Black Riders.
Time to call in the heavy guns on that one- Elthir! Eldo! Who the heck were they again and when did they rule as Kings?

I hope that hole didnt have green wallpaper.

I feel I would be a more rounded person if I knew what that meant Mrs Figgs? Is there a connection between Napolean and green wallpaper what am I missing?

I thought thats how he died, when he was exiled living on the island of St Helena, his bedroom had green wallpaper made with green arsenic pigments that in the damp weather leached into the atmosphere and slowly poisoned him. I think there was a forensic test done on a lock of his hair and it showed abnormal amounts of arsenic, first they thought someone had put it into his food to do him in, but later they found the wallpaper. Maybe its an urban myth, but I thought it was based on fact.