Homosexuality

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Homosexuality

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:31 am

Just so as not to crowd the "God" thread with this, I created this one. I do not want to turn this into the arguement it was last time, just a discussion.

So what are your views? I don't have anything against Homosexuals as people, but this pretty much sums it up for me:

God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Orwell on Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:43 am

God (if God exists) made "Steve", but his parents named him. Very Happy


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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:52 am

If there is a God He couldn't give a flying fig is my view. He would have to be a petty, mean sort of a God otherwise. So long as enough breed the conventional way to keep the species going along Adam can bugger Steve till the cows come home.

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:18 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

If God created only Adam and Eve, then he would have necessitated incest between their offspring, and he is really in no position to be condemning other people for their sexuality. Wink

On a serious note, what people do in their private lives, including who they have sex with, is their own business. Not mine, not yours, and not God's. That's kind of the point of free will, although the Bible tries to play it both ways by saying "you can do what you like ... but if you break any of these rules you'll be tortured for eternity!" That's beside the point though; if God exists and hates homosexuality then he's just a tyrannical bigot instead of a normal bigot. That said, I have to agree with Petty that any being capable of creating the universe probably doesn't care who some insignificant sapients on and out-of-the-way planet are screwing, especially when no one is being hurt.

This ties into a broader point that might belong more in the God thread, but I'll spell it out here anyway. Male-female sex is necessary for procreation, obviously, so if one accepts that the Genesis story is even remotely true then it would of course be necessary for early humans to procreate in order to increase the population. Later on, especially in the modern era, the population is so large that there is no need for everyone to have as many children as possible in order to perpetuate the species. Far from it. So there is no "necessity" argument to be made against homosexuality; it's purely people's private lives and business. That's one of the neat things about the modern world.

So, with that in mind, what does it matter that "God created Adam and Eve"? Does God actually think that homosexuality is morally wrong? Even if that's the case, what does it matter? What moral obligation is there upon people to follow the rules spelled out by God in the Bible, even if there were incontrovertible proof that God is real. There is the threat of punishment in Hell, of course, but that does not mean that God is a moral authority anymore than death squads make Third World dictators moral. I'm genuinely interested to know if any of the religious members of the forum have reasoning for why God is assumed to be moral despite all of the reprehensible stuff in the Bible, or if it's just an unconscious assumption. Smile
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Orwell on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:32 am

How the hell did this divisive thread get back to the top the pile? Mad

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:43 am

I'm honestly not sure why Lorient brought it up again, but I'm not complaining. Very Happy
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Orwell on Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:30 am

Oh... Shocked I think I see... Embarassed

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:32 pm

I was actually hoping that some of the more respectable members would post inthe thread. Not just you three, I already know what you think. Nod
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:05 pm

Ohhh by implication that makes me a disrespectful member of the community. And me, a mod too!

Good point made by Eldo above- anyone from the religous end of the spectrum wish to answer it, I too would be interested in the answer.

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:40 pm

Lorient Avandi wrote:I was actually hoping that some of the more respectable members would post inthe thread. Not just you three, I already know what you think. Nod

Well, I am curious what you think about my previous posts and the counterarguments to your position in general. It's not personal but I do love a good debate. Very Happy
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Amarië on Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:22 pm

Well, what can I say? I have nothing against Homophobics in person, I just think they don't know any better and need to be educated. tongue

I believe that God cares about what is inside a person, about what good they do with their lives and how they treat others. If you are a Christian, this means that you believe in Chris and his teachings. And Christ is about love, understanding and forgiveness and most of all: treat others as you wish to be treated.

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:24 pm

Amarië wrote:If you are a Christian, this means that you believe in Chris and his teachings.

I believe in Chris and his teachings too. Very Happy

And Christ is about love, understanding and forgiveness and most of all: treat others as you wish to be treated.

I find your sort of religion much more attractive than dogmatic and judgemental religions, I must say. Do you consider the moral teachings of Christ such as the Golden Rule to supersede other parts of the Bible, then? Smile
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:25 pm

What about the Old Testament Amarie? Does it indicate God had a change of heart before Christ was born? That He was wrong before?

Eldo we have asked much the same question -great minds and all that (but how dare yours be so great so young!)

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Amarië on Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:48 pm

I promise I will return with a reply, I just don't have the time right now. Smile

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Kafria on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:52 pm

Hmm..

If God created only Adam and Eve, then he would have necessitated incest between their offspring

Interestingly studies of genetic variation across the human race suggest that actually there is a much smaller gene pool than one would expect for the time scale involved and the rate of genetic mutation that occurs naturally. This suggests that all modern humans are actually descended from a small group of individuals - not Adam and Eve alone, but a small number all the same!

Which adds weight to the idea..

so if one accepts that the Genesis story is even remotely true then it would of course be necessary for early humans to procreate in order to increase the population.

From a personal perspective I am a Christian, but I also believe everyone has the right to be themselves, that includes sexuality. I take people as I find them, without the use of convinent labels. And the reason for that is this:

Christ is about love, understanding and forgiveness and most of all: treat others as you wish to be treated.

This really is the crux of the matter, yes the OT condems, but it also says we should stone mystics among other things. The new testement and the gospel is what separates it from the other abrahamic faiths! I do not believe that I have any idea what the mercy and grace of Christ may encompass and so I don't judge (as far as my petty human nature allows)

To end on a scientific note, there is evidence that homsexual behaviour is found in a wide variety of animals, that there may be gentic components as well as nurture ones, as with most human characteristics. Recent evidence suggest one of the factors may be how many older siblings of the same sex you have (Your % likelihood of being gay increase for each one so a fourth brother is much more likely to be gay than an eldest brother!) Equally bonding behaviours of this type are important in strengthening social groupings, reducing aggresion in same sex groups.

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:37 pm

Technically, if you do believe in the OT then technically speaking that way, we all descend from Noah. That was a slightly larger group of people than Adam and Eve....
Also, I condemn the practice of homosexuality, but I do not think homosexuals should burn for it, nor do I believe they will burn for it. They are simply as ignorant as the next person of God's teachings. To any Non-Mormon, homosexuality is a widely excepted practice and no longer considered a bad thing. To me it is the same deal as if someone straight goes out and has sex with someone he/she is not married to. They do not know it is a bad thing. They won't burn for it because they are ignorant. But if a Mormon suddenly became homosexual or committed adultery they would have to repent because they knew it was wrong. Or they could end up not going to the celestial kingdom.

No matter what you think of this post, I am not a religious zealot anymore than the next guy.


Last edited by Lorient Avandi on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Orwell on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:38 pm

Amarië wrote:Well, what can I say? I have nothing against Homophobics in person, I just think they don't know any better and need to be educated. tongue

I believe that God cares about what is inside a person, about what good they do with their lives and how they treat others. If you are a Christian, this means that you believe in Chris and his teachings. And Christ is about love, understanding and forgiveness and most of all: treat others as you wish to be treated.

If I was Jesus, I wouldn't be keen on unforgiving homophobic type people, but as I'm not Jesus, I can't really say, 'cause Jesus can speak for Himself, that's if Jesus actually exists that is, of course.

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:40 pm

I think it's nice when we're agreeable from time to time, Petty. Razz

Amarië wrote:I promise I will return with a reply, I just don't have the time right now.

Feel free to take your time! Smile
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Orwell on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:40 pm

Lorient Avandi wrote:To any Non-Mormon, homosexuality is a widely excepted practice and no longer considered a bad thing.
No matter what you think of this post, I am not a religious zealot anymore than the next guy.

Two clearly incorrect statements my friend. I ignored the rest of your post as best I could. Very Happy

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:42 pm

Beat me to it, Orwell! Whatever our differences of opinion, I don't see how Lorient can claim that Mormons are the only group that condemns homosexuality. Suspect

Also, Lorient, you might not be particularly religious (or bigoted, to drag up that word again Razz) by the standards of the community in which you grew up, but compared to other places, some of your posts come off as rather backwards. I don't mean this as a personal attack, just a note for some perspective. Wink
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Orwell on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:45 pm

Kafria wrote:Hmm..

If God created only Adam and Eve, then he would have necessitated incest between their offspring

Interestingly studies of genetic variation across the human race suggest that actually there is a much smaller gene pool than one would expect for the time scale involved and the rate of genetic mutation that occurs naturally. This suggests that all modern humans are actually descended from a small group of individuals - not Adam and Eve alone, but a small number all the same!



According to the OT that "small group of people" was Adam and Eve, Kafria. So, as I see it, "ïncest" was alright to begin with, but not later on. God did not make incest evil to begin with, but it was part of his Plan to make it evil later, probably around the time of Noah if Lorient is correct, but I'll check my bible for confirmation of that.... study

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Orwell on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:47 pm

Eldorion wrote:Beat me to it, Orwell! Whatever our differences of opinion, I don't see how Lorient can claim that Mormons are the only group that condemns homosexuality. Suspect

Also, Lorient, you might not be particularly religious (or bigoted, to drag up that word again Razz) by the standards of the community in which you grew up, but compared to other places, some of your posts come off as rather backwards. I don't mean this as a personal attack, just a note for some perspective. Wink

{{{{{Backwards? Laughing "I don't mean this as a persional attack" -- hee hee hee. Oh youuuuuuu, Eldo! Laughing }}}}}

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:55 pm

I did not say that we are the only ones who condemn it. And we aren't, but it is much more excepted by the rest of the world. There are many people who condemn it, but not a great many groups any more. It has become much more excepted and the people who do condemn it usually do so as individuals. Such as Catholics; the entire church is not against them but there are individuals in the church who are. And I have met people who are much more religious than I am, especially in my church. I am by no means the least religious person in my church nor am i the most religious. There are a lot of people from other religions who are more religious than I am. You guys should seriously visit Utah sometime... If you think I'm religious, wait till you see some other people from here.

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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Lorient Avandi on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:57 pm

By saying Mormons I meant to just show that we are One of the groups. I should have phrased it better.
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:01 pm

Lorient Avandi wrote:By saying Mormons I meant to just show that we are One of the groups. I should have phrased it better.

Ah, I see what you mean. No problem. Smile

And Lorient, I really don't have anything against you personally. You seem like a decent, nice guy from our interactions on this forum (which, admittedly, have mostly been in passing, but still) and I don't think that you're malicious or anything. I realize that you are not fanatical or anything, but I hope you can understand how "out there" some of what you say sounds to people who live in more secular communities. The perspective thing goes both ways, though.
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