reaching new heights

Pettytyrant101 wrote: (...) As for the gnomes 'small' isn't much to go on. Small presumably by the standards of the time so I would reckon that puts them about the four foot mark. Well thats a lot of ifs, buts, maybe and conjecture disguised as an argument. Pure guesswork but its my best stab at it based on that passage.

Nuin's words to Tu on the stature of the sleepers in the vale of Murmenalda are curious. In A is added: 'Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now. As the power of Men has grown the fairies have dwindled and Men waxed somewhat.' Other early statements indicate that Men and Elves were originally of very similar stature, and that the diminishing in that of the Elves was closely related to the coming of, and the dominance of, Men.

Nuin's words are therefore puzzling, especially since in A they immediately preceded the comment on the original similarity of size; for he can surely only mean that the sleepers in Murmenalda were very large by comparison with the Elves. That the sleepers were in fact children, not merely likened in some way to children, is made clear in D: 'Nuin finds the Slumbrous Dale (Murmenalda) where countless children lie'

Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Lost Tales

'(...) nor any the more when Nuin made an end of his tale, telling of all he saw there -- and methought,' said he, 'that all who slumbered there were children, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves.'

(...) The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf).

Actual size – only important if other objects are in picture – say about three feet or three feet six inches. The hobbit in the picture of the gold-hoard, Chapter XII, is of course (apart from being fat in the wrong places) enormously too large. But (as my children, at any rate, understand) he is really in a separate picture or 'plane' – being invisible to the dragon.

JRRT, letter 27

'... to this: Dwarves about 4 foot high at least. Hobbits were lighter in build, but not much shorter; their tallest men were 4 ft. but seldom taller. Though nowadays their survivors are seldom 3 feet high, in the days of the story they were taller which means that they usually exceeded 3 ft. and qualified for the name halfling. But the name halfling must have originated circa TA 1150, getting on for some 2,000 years (1868) before the War of the Ring, during which the dwindling of the Numenoreans had shown itself in stature as well as life-span. So that it referred to a height of full grown males of an average of, say, 3 ft. 5.'

Elthir wrote:Here's some (of my) ideas on relative tallness with respect to the period of the War of the Ring (the Numenoreans will have dwindled from 1150 TA when 'halfling' was coined). Please quibble if you like! I haven't set them all in stone for myself. I think there was an old thread on the subject in the archives, but again I don't think I can add to that thread -- bumping it here -- so I started this one.

Good guys and bad guys

Hobbits: between 3 and 4 feet (Bullroarer and other notable hobbits excepted)

Dwarves: about 4 feet high at least (JRRT, late note)

Lesser orcs (snaga-types): 3.5 feet to 4.5 feet

Uruks: 4.5 to 5.5 feet and above -- that is, say a 5 foot 8 to 5 foot 10 inch Uruk being exceptionally huge for an orc (the 'huge' Orc-chieftain in Moria was almost 'man-high')

Gandalf: '... even bent must have been at least 5 ft. 6... Which would make him a short man even in modern England, especially with the reduction of a bent back.' (JRRT, late note)

Men in general, and Goblin-men or 'half-orcs': around 5 feet 10 to 6 feet, or 'man-high' (but not according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old)

Men of high Numenorean lineage (includes Boromir): 6 feet 4 or 'man-high' according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old. Includes Galadriel as well, and arguably Celeborn too.


The Rohirrim: '... were generally shorter, for in their far-off ancestry they had been mingled with men of broader and heavier build. Éomer was said to have been tall, of like height with Aragorn; but he with other descendants of King Thengel were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic (together in some cases with darker hair) from Morwen, Thengel's wife, a lady of Gondor of high Númenórean descent.' (Unfinished Tales)

I assume this means shorter than man-high according to the measure of the Dunedain -- but also I note what is said here of Éomer compared to text published years before: 'Éomer was like his fathers before him; but Éowyn was slender and tall, with a grace and pride that came to her out of the South from Morwen of Lossarnach, whom the Rohirrim had called Steelsheen.' (Appendix A) Éomer was Éomund's son of course, and Morwen's blood is traced through Théodwyn. I think 'his fathers before him' refers to Éomund's line (noting too that Théodwyn's father is Thengel, Morwen's husband). And seemingly in comparison -- interestingly, with mention of her physique -- it is rather Éowyn who gets noted traits from Morwen.


Aragorn: at least 6 foot 6 (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin men: no less than 6 foot 6, and taller for some kings and leaders (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin women: seldom less than 6 feet (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Thingol, Turgon, and Argon seem be the tallest of the Children of Eru, despite that the Numenoreans, at their peak, were very tall of course. Maedros is nick-named the Tall, as well as Elendil -- but for Elendil there appears to be two variant (IMO) late descriptions regarding just how tall he was.





For the Eldar I chose a late note where Tolkien reacts to an illustration made by Pauline Baynes -- over another late description in Of Dwarves And Men where the Eldar appear to be generally taller. I have no real evidence as to which text came after the other, so my choice is rather based on my opinion: that I think one description better allows for more of Tolkien's late statements to fit together.

Compared to the height of Eldarin men noted above, for example, Of Dwarves and Men notes that: 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Such a shame Mckellan doesnt play Gandalf with a bent back however- a definite mistake in my view.