reaching new heights

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:08 pm

the spammer is sat at Pettys computer spamming ur forumz

_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21907
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by beornthebeast on Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:13 am

Elthir wrote:Here's some (of my) ideas on relative tallness with respect to the period of the War of the Ring (the Numenoreans will have dwindled from 1150 TA when 'halfling' was coined). Please quibble if you like! I haven't set them all in stone for myself. I think there was an old thread on the subject in the archives, but again I don't think I can add to that thread -- bumping it here -- so I started this one.

Good guys and bad guys

Hobbits: between 3 and 4 feet (Bullroarer and other notable hobbits excepted)

Dwarves: about 4 feet high at least (JRRT, late note)

Lesser orcs (snaga-types): 3.5 feet to 4.5 feet

Uruks: 4.5 to 5.5 feet and above -- that is, say a 5 foot 8 to 5 foot 10 inch Uruk being exceptionally huge for an orc (the 'huge' Orc-chieftain in Moria was almost 'man-high')

Gandalf: '... even bent must have been at least 5 ft. 6... Which would make him a short man even in modern England, especially with the reduction of a bent back.' (JRRT, late note)

Men in general, and Goblin-men or 'half-orcs': around 5 feet 10 to 6 feet, or 'man-high' (but not according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old)

Men of high Numenorean lineage (includes Boromir): 6 feet 4 or 'man-high' according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old. Includes Galadriel as well, and arguably Celeborn too.


The Rohirrim: '... were generally shorter, for in their far-off ancestry they had been mingled with men of broader and heavier build. Éomer was said to have been tall, of like height with Aragorn; but he with other descendants of King Thengel were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic (together in some cases with darker hair) from Morwen, Thengel's wife, a lady of Gondor of high Númenórean descent.' (Unfinished Tales)

I assume this means shorter than man-high according to the measure of the Dunedain -- but also I note what is said here of Éomer compared to text published years before: 'Éomer was like his fathers before him; but Éowyn was slender and tall, with a grace and pride that came to her out of the South from Morwen of Lossarnach, whom the Rohirrim had called Steelsheen.' (Appendix A) Éomer was Éomund's son of course, and Morwen's blood is traced through Théodwyn. I think 'his fathers before him' refers to Éomund's line (noting too that Théodwyn's father is Thengel, Morwen's husband). And seemingly in comparison -- interestingly, with mention of her physique -- it is rather Éowyn who gets noted traits from Morwen.


Aragorn: at least 6 foot 6 (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin men: no less than 6 foot 6, and taller for some kings and leaders (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin women: seldom less than 6 feet (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Thingol, Turgon, and Argon seem be the tallest of the Children of Eru, despite that the Numenoreans, at their peak, were very tall of course. Maedros is nick-named the Tall, as well as Elendil -- but for Elendil there appears to be two variant (IMO) late descriptions regarding just how tall he was.





For the Eldar I chose a late note where Tolkien reacts to an illustration made by Pauline Baynes -- over another late description in Of Dwarves And Men where the Eldar appear to be generally taller. I have no real evidence as to which text came after the other, so my choice is rather based on my opinion: that I think one description better allows for more of Tolkien's late statements to fit together.

Compared to the height of Eldarin men noted above, for example, Of Dwarves and Men notes that: 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

Wow really nice job!!
I pretty much agree with everything you said except the part where you seem to be talking about the average Eldar being 6'6'' if yourself just mentioned that they were no less than 6'6'' so I think their average should be higher unless their heights don't vary or there is a context behind that words that explain better. Anyway and again talking about their height it seems to you that their woman were of almost equal height with the male since they were seldom less than 6' and so their average would be at least close to 6'6''.

beornthebeast
Newbie

Posts : 4
Join date : 2014-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:03 pm

We've got a newbie! cheers Welcome Beorne t. B.! Since you seem to be deep into Tolkien you'll fit in well here.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13203
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:16 pm

Welcome to Forumshire Beorn pub

Elthir and Eldo are our two Lore Specialists and in amongst the forum silliness and fun you will stumble across many a quality indepth discussion by either of them on various aspects of Tolkiens work.
Your thoughts on these are most welcome (and I think you have a point about the average height).

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39522
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 46
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Eldorion on Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:20 pm

Welcome to Forumshire, BTB! Smile I'm glad to see that interest in book lore is still strong. study
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22730
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:30 pm

6 foot 6''. thats flipping tall. Shocked

_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21907
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by beornthebeast on Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:31 pm

That's what I call a great reception!! Thank you and I won't disappoint you guys as I'm a huge fan of Tolkien's lore.

beornthebeast
Newbie

Posts : 4
Join date : 2014-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Eldorion on Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:37 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:6 foot 6''. thats flipping tall. Shocked

Not that I'm criticizing Viggo here, because he gave a great performance, but Aragorn's physical presence ("tall as the sea-kings of old") is one thing that doesn't really come across in the movies.  Although Aragorn didn't really draw attention to his himself or is height for the most part, until his coronation, when (to paraphrase from "The Steward and the King") everyone thought it was like they were seeing him for the first time.
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22730
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Eldorion on Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:39 pm

beornthebeast wrote:That's what I call a great reception!! Thank you and I won't disappoint you guys as I'm a huge fan of Tolkien's lore.

I hope you'll poke around and jump into any discussions, new or old, that strike your fancy. And don't hesitate to create a new thread if there's something you want to bring up. Smile
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22730
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:07 pm

If lore is your thing then the Lord of the Rings sections and Silmarillion and Beyond probably has the most lore threads. Might be worth having a root about in those to see what catches your eye Beorn.
And as Eldos says dont be shy about bringing old threads back to life or starting your own.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39522
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 46
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by azriel on Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:49 pm

Hiya Beornthebeast Wave

_________________
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish.”
"There are far, far, better things ahead than any we can leave behind"
If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got



avatar
azriel
Grumpy cat, rub my tummy, hear me purr

Posts : 12888
Join date : 2012-10-07
Age : 58
Location : in a galaxy, far,far away, deep in my own imagination.

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:26 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:6 foot 6''. thats flipping tall. Shocked

Not that I'm criticizing Viggo here, because he gave a great performance, but Aragorn's physical presence ("tall as the sea-kings of old") is one thing that doesn't really come across in the movies.  Although Aragorn didn't really draw attention to his himself or is height for the most part, until his coronation, when (to paraphrase from "The Steward and the King") everyone thought it was like they were seeing him for the first time.

yes Viggo only really looked kingly at the coronation, I suppose he always looked like a Ranger to me, apart from in Rivendell when he looked princely in his velvet coat, but not kingly until the very end, maybe thats why they had him grow a beard.

_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21907
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:36 pm

Yeah, that's something I thought about with Mark Addy too, but I feel they both grasped the character. Shrugging

_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
avatar
Bluebottle
Adventurer

Posts : 9555
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 31

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Eldorion on Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:40 am

I like that Aragorn's coming into his own meant upgrading from stubble to full beard. No facial hair half-measures for the King of Gondor!
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22730
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by beornthebeast on Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:47 am

Hey guys I found the passage that Elthir was talking about the Eldar with their 6’6” (assuming that was an average statement):
A Tall elf
'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'
I think if we take out ”seldom less” and “no less” than it could definitely be read as an average but with that in there I would rather think of that as a minimum height statement. That being said, since their shortest are 6’6” their average should be higher (how much we don’t know), however there are other passages that refers to the Eldar as being about 7 feet but especially the Noldor Eldar:
'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’
Overall I think it’s at least reasonable that if the shortest Eldar are 6’6” a normal one should at least be close to 7’ especially The Noldor who seem to be the tallest of the Eldar in average (not by much though) not only stated in that passage but in others like:
'Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'
‘In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.’

beornthebeast
Newbie

Posts : 4
Join date : 2014-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:11 am

No facial hair half-measures for the King of Gondor!- Eldo

I though he looked like a hobo at the coronation with that half scrub beard.
One of the things I felt the films did not do very well for a visual medium was make the difference in appearance striking enough between Strider and Aragorn the King. Tolkien puts quite a bit of emphasis on it.
Maybe they should have got him to have a shave instead, wash his hair and change the style of it instead of just getting him to grow a half-arsed beard and plonk a crown on his greasy looking locks. Mad

'there are other passages that refers to the Eldar as being about 7 feet but especially the Noldor Eldar'- Beorn

One problem with doing elves looking proper height wise on film would be finding enough good actors of sufficient height (youd get away with 6' ft or so and a box for most shots though) but it would pricey and time consuming on group shots of different races.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39522
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 46
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Eldorion on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:15 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I though he looked like a hobo at the coronation with that half scrub beard.

Do you refuse to acknowledge beards if they don't hang down past the neck or something?
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22730
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:19 am

It was scrubby, a poor beard, its not about length its about not looking messy and patchy.
Aragorn King should have been strikingly different I feel. Cleaner would have been a good start.
Strider should be a bit rough, a bit grubby, bit dirty. Aragorn King of Gondor shouldnt look like someone just plonked a crown onto on smelly travel worn Strider.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39522
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 46
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Eldorion on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:23 am

avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22730
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:39 am

Exactly. A haircut would have helped distinguish the two, he had the long hair as Strider the whole time, if had been cut in a different style for the coronation it would have been immediately striking. And the beards rubbish as its just a bit fuller and a bit neater than the Strider look- again clean shaven would have been a much more dramatic difference, especially combined with shorter hair.
Doing that would have helped convey the sense in the book that he looks markedly different in Kingly mode than as Strider. Its like they never even really bothered trying.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39522
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 46
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Eldorion on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:48 am

C'mon, man. Having long hair does not mean that he looks unkempt. His hair is clearly well groomed. And his beard is an actual beard, which is not something that Aragorn had had at any prior point in the trilogy.
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22730
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:55 am

Its just Strider tidied up a bit. That strikes me as very lazy.
Tolkien makes a point of the difference between Strider and Aragorn and a simple way to convey that in film would be to have a dramatically different look between the two personas. Not just Strider groomed a bit. Thats just unimaginative and lazy (mind you going on the script I think they stopped giving a shit about Aragorns story long before then)

I know someone who finds his supposed Kingly appearance so annoying and lazy they consider it a deal breaker for the film.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39522
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 46
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Eldorion on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:10 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I know someone who finds his supposed Kingly appearance so annoying and lazy they consider it a deal breaker for the film.

That's possibly the pettiest thing I've ever heard.

I'd love if you could point to a line in the book where they say that people's perception of Aragorn was different because he got a haircut, though, rather than it being the way he carried himself, dressed, and generally presented different.
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22730
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:14 am

That's possibly the pettiest thing I've ever heard.- Eldo

Ill let them know that.

'I'd love if you could point to a line in the book where they say that people's perception of Aragorn was different because he got a haircut'

I think that qualifies as rather petty too given I never said that and you know it. I said Tolkien makes a big deal of the change in how people see Aragorn compared to Strider, and that an easy way to achieve a sense of that would be to have him look noticeably different in each persona.
I dont see much difference between King Aragorn and Strider beyond a bath and a tidy up and I dont think that very effectively conveys the difference that the book does in how people perceive him.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39522
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 46
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: reaching new heights

Post by Forest Shepherd on Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:34 am

Eldorion wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:I though he looked like a hobo at the coronation with that half scrub beard.

Do you refuse to acknowledge beards if they don't hang down past the neck or something?
I think if it can't be tucked into the sporran to hide the beer-belly, it ain't a beard in Petty's book.

(For the record, I was never a huge fan of Viggo's Aragorn once he became crowned. I didn't like the beard so much as it made his face look fatter.)

_________________
Boar is badger, named after wood,
Not after forest but trees.
Where did you play on a rainy day?
Where did I eat bread and cheese?
Search inside, stay indoors,
Look up and find the secret is yours.
Your castle your fort,
Or so you thought.
The way is in four trees.
The way is in Boar in Brockhall
Under ale, under bread, under cheese.

-Mossflower, by Brian Jacques.
avatar
Forest Shepherd
Adventurer

Posts : 3549
Join date : 2013-11-02
Age : 26
Location : Northern California

Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum