Faramir and other changes

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Elthir on Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:33 am

Orwell wrote: If Arwen had played "exactly" the same role as Glorfindel as far as going out to meet Aragorn, and the "love" element was kept (initially) out of it, focusing instead on the drama of Frodo's growing illness and the shadows closing in, then it would have worked nicely for me.

I think it certainly would have been much better than the fan fiction we got -- yet I suppose if Arwen wasn't going to start the love element at this point, I might more strongly wonder why she was employed here instead of Master Greenleaf for instance -- who could have used Tolkien's actual Elvish incidentally (borrowed from Master Goldenhair).

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Orwell on Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:41 am

I don't mean to suggest that it could not be done in a way to suggest something going on between them. It would require subtlety though, get the audience guessing, but not hit them with a sledgehammer. Arwen lit up with Valinorean (?) light, as Glorfindel was in the book, (without the over-dramatc "Galadriel light-up" mind!) could like awesome. Wouldn't that get the audience guessing! The hint of unknown "Powers" in Middle Earth. Arwen could also give Aragorn, Narsil, reforged. I know it breaks a little from Tolkien, but is still in keeping with Tolkien's vision. Arwen and Aragorn had a big (behind the scenes) role in the events of LotR. Why not bring it to the fore? Oh yes, Arwen getting all sooky with Frodo in her arms was a huge low-point for me... she hardly knew him... and would Arwen really act like that? (Where's that vomiting smilee when I need it? Mad )

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by chris63 on Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:43 pm

Someone else not happy with PJ's changers.

http://www.neebeep.com/itsownsweetwillneebeepc/2011/04/lotr.html#tp
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Orwell on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:22 am

Too late to fix now I'm guessing... Sad

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by RA on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:28 pm

I wonder what he'd say about the Hobbit. Suspect

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by CC12 35 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:28 am


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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Orwell on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:13 pm

5

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Forest Shepherd on Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:27 am

Elthir wrote: ...but anyway, if no film director will risk Glorfindel, I actually think Legolas could work well enough (with a brief explanation), or at least work better than what we got with Arwen -- and Arwen could have been introduced even earlier in the film, in a flashback (Aragorn's) as the Company journeyed from Bree to Rivendell.

I think that's a good spot for a flashback actually, as it would take up 'real time' (for viewers) and return to Aragorn and Company in a different looking location -- which might help instill the sense of a longish journey at this point, yet still provide a change of scenery for the audience 'in between', so to speak.
Firstly, hi everyone!
And, to the point:
While I have no opinion on whether introducing Arwen via flashback could have worked, I do not agree that Legolas would have served as a substitute for Glorfindel. Orlando Bloom's Legolas is arguably rather wooden in his acting and would be a poor candidate for the film's first Elven character (disregarding our brief glimpse of Elrond in the intro). It would be like having the androgynous oddities from the "capture" scene in Lothlorien as a first impression of elves.

Which is why, even though Arwen has little right to be wandering the woods of the Trollshaws at night alone, her introduction and the following scenes really work cinematically. It is through the hobbits' perspectives that we meet Arwen, almost literally. We first see her from Frodo's POV, wherein she shines in his darkening world with an ephemeral, star-like, glow. Sam and such react in awe as well, even though they lack Frodo's stella-vision. The first clear elvish dialogue of the film, although subtitled, provides a further basis for setting apart elves as a uniquely graceful and mysterious race in Middle-earth.

I have written too much, but I would also agree that Arwen is just a bit too emotionally connected to Frodo so early in their aquaintance (even though the scene does work in the sense that her feelings mirror our own, concerned as we are with his fate). Also, the flight to the ford, bastardized as it is in terms of lore, stands as one of the best action sequences in the film trilogy.
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Orwell on Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:56 am

Hi Forest Shepherd. Welcome!

As to "I would also agree that Arwen is just a bit too emotionally connected to Frodo so early in their aquaintance". Darn tootin'! (Also the theatrics is out of character for an Princess of Arwen's High Elvenish!)

As to "Arwen has little right to be wandering the woods of the Trollshaws at night alone". If she is replacing Glorfindel  - I guess it's feasible to have her find them in the night (even if that itself isn't straight-Tolkien).  

Cheers.

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:59 pm

I totally agree about the introduction of Elves. Seeing Arwen in her glowing spiritual? form is a good way cinematically to show the audience the Elves are more than flesh and blood and have another dimension.
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:06 pm

Welcome to Forumshire Forest cheers 

Laving asde it should have been Glorfindel I agree the change makes cinematic sense (if almost no other kind) and even the over immediate bond with Frodo could have served a purpose if at the end of RotK Arwen still counselled Frodo, gave him the jewel for comfort and petitioned for him to be allowed to go to the Havens. But as PJ couldnt be arsed with any of that it doesnt.

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:17 pm

I dont think that Arwen petitioning for Frodo was necessary, all the Ring bearers got to go to the Havens.
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:20 pm

Tolkien felt it necessary.
And given Awen's only really direct scenes with Frodo, and where she effect the main story, is her part in comforting him after the Rings loss its typical of Pj to leave it out- leave out the one thing she actually does and instead make up a lot of stuff she doesnt do Mad 

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Elthir on Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:24 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote: While I have no opinion on whether introducing Arwen via flashback could have worked, I do not agree that Legolas would have served as a substitute for Glorfindel. Orlando Bloom's Legolas is arguably rather wooden in his acting and would be a poor candidate for the film's first Elven character (disregarding our brief glimpse of Elrond in the intro). It would be like having the androgynous oddities from the "capture" scene in Lothlorien as a first impression of elves.
I don't mean Orlando Bloom's Legolas, or Jackson's Legolas... but Legolas.

Which is why, even though Arwen has little right to be wandering the woods of the Trollshaws at night alone, her introduction and the following scenes really work cinematically. It is through the hobbits' perspectives that we meet Arwen, almost literally. We first see her from Frodo's POV, wherein she shines in his darkening world with an ephemeral, star-like, glow. Sam and such react in awe as well, even though they lack Frodo's stella-vision. The first clear elvish dialogue of the film, although subtitled, provides a further basis for setting apart elves as a uniquely graceful and mysterious race in Middle-earth.
In my opinion Arwen's ephemeralityness and gracefutility could have worked cinematically and cinematographically in a flashback too, from a different perspective, Aragorn's. Without Arwen 'surprising' Aragorn with her sword at his neck [how the viewer first meets this character], or riding off with Frodo.

Arwen could have spoken in Elvish in the flashback too. Maybe even some actual Elvish instead of fan-made stuff [apologies, as a fan of Tolkien's languages I find it difficult not to point this out even in this admittedly annoying fashion]!

And welcome Smile
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:31 pm

I always thought the 'flashback' scene in the book which Frodo witnesses in Lothlorien, when he sees a vision of the meeting of Aragorn and Arwen when they pledged themselves to each other and rejected the Darkness would have been the natural place to establish their story.

PJ is too afraid to do things slowly, but if it had been me Arwen would have been a presence in Rivendell but not a main feature, and for drama's sake I would probably have had Elronds prohibition to Aragorn marrying unless he was King of North and South declared then at Rivendell, with the viewer only coming to fully realise the implications to Aragorn as the story goes on and we find more out about them (like at Lothlorien in the flashack scene).

I dont think its necessary, or indeed desirable, to tell their story in linear fashion.

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:37 pm

I thought it was well done, the only part that was a tad overcooked was the bit where she cries for Frodo although they just met.
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Elthir on Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:41 pm

That's good too Petty. I only put the flashback scene here for two reasons: as I said, to help with the feeling of 'time passage', since this part of the journey is long but the film doesn't need to drag on here with too many 'walking scenes' for example...

... and also in response to those Jackson fans who had already stated that the film needed to get this relationship going at this point in the films.

I don't agree with those who have said that, but in consideration of that opinion I offered a version where she appears 'even earlier' [or around the same time at least] in any case.
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Eldorion on Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:38 pm

Hi Forest, welcome to Forumshire! Smile

While I missed seeing Glorfindel, my biggest problem with the Flight to the Ford scene has always been how they downgraded Frodo to a sack of potatoes.  I can overlook the identity of the specific elf who rescues him, more or less, but I didn't care to see Frodo reduced to a drooling, moaning moron so early in the films.  I think it reflects PJ's habit of anticipating (to borrow a phrase from Janet Croft) later developments in Frodo's character, which cheapens the later events and robs the character of the events the establish his early strength.  There would be a lot less people who came away from the movies thinking that Frodo was a useless whiner if he'd been able to ride to the Ford on his own and still challenge the Lord of the Nazgul, however feebly, on his own.
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Eldorion on Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:43 pm

NB I really like the idea of flashback scenes for Aragorn and Arwen at Rivendell and Lorien. I think it's fitting to get a closer glimpse of Elves (and Arwen) in situations where the Fellowship is already in an ethereal and Elvish environment. I think the screenwriters (likely Boyens, based on the commentaries) always had a little too much of an interest in Elves for a story that is supposed to be about Hobbits and Men set during the waning days of the Eldar in Middle-earth. See also the Elves at Helm's Deep thing. Razz
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:58 pm

see I just dont get this Frodo as useless whiner thing. At all. If they had made him feisty in the Ford it would have taken away the dramatic impact of him being stabbed by the Morgul sword. Cinematically it made sense to have Frodo nearly overcome by the wound, it was a great introduction to Rivendell and the healing power of the Elves.
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Norc on Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:39 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:
Elthir wrote: ...but anyway, if no film director will risk Glorfindel, I actually think Legolas could work well enough (with a brief explanation), or at least work better than what we got with Arwen -- and Arwen could have been introduced even earlier in the film, in a flashback (Aragorn's) as the Company journeyed from Bree to Rivendell.

I think that's a good spot for a flashback actually, as it would take up 'real time' (for viewers) and return to Aragorn and Company in a different looking location -- which might help instill the sense of a longish journey at this point, yet still provide a change of scenery for the audience 'in between', so to speak.
Firstly, hi everyone!
And, to the point:
While I have no opinion on whether introducing Arwen via flashback could have worked, I do not agree that Legolas would have served as a substitute for Glorfindel. Orlando Bloom's Legolas is arguably rather wooden in his acting and would be a poor candidate for the film's first Elven character (disregarding our brief glimpse of Elrond in the intro). It would be like having the androgynous oddities from the "capture" scene in Lothlorien as a first impression of elves.

Which is why, even though Arwen has little right to be wandering the woods of the Trollshaws at night alone, her introduction and the following scenes really work cinematically. It is through the hobbits' perspectives that we meet Arwen, almost literally. We first see her from Frodo's POV, wherein she shines in his darkening world with an ephemeral, star-like, glow. Sam and such react in awe as well, even though they lack Frodo's stella-vision. The first clear elvish dialogue of the film, although subtitled, provides a further basis for setting apart elves as a uniquely graceful and mysterious race in Middle-earth.

I have written too much, but I would also agree that Arwen is just a bit too emotionally connected to Frodo so early in their aquaintance (even though the scene does work in the sense that her feelings mirror our own, concerned as we are with his fate). Also, the flight to the ford, bastardized as it is in terms of lore, stands as one of the best action sequences in the film trilogy.
Thanks!
hi forest ^^ i absolutely agree with everything u say Smile i think we'll make good friends ^^

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Norc on Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:42 pm

figg, hurt and wounded and dying yes, but a drooling sack of potatoes that just does nothing? he could've at least said something.

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:04 pm

Mad 
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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:13 pm

If they had made him feisty in the Ford it would have taken away the dramatic impact of him being stabbed by the Morgul sword. - Mrs Figg

I disagree. What would have made the Morgul blade dramatic is doing what Tolkien wrote, and have Aragorn realise a piece has broken off in the wound and is making its way to hi heart, this creating all the dramatic impetus of a ticking time bomb in his body for the Flight to the Ford.
I have never understood why Pj left this dramatic device out of it when its so crucial to the tension, Hitchock once said that all the best drama came down to the ticking bomb in one guise or another.

As to Frodo being wimpy, if it was only at the Ford they might have got away with it but film Frodo is not only whiney I dont really like him very much.

Film Frodo hides cowering from the Black Rider under a tree, he doesnt throw himself down in the long grass to get a better look, film Frodo runs away from the Riders and falls onto the ferry, he doesn't stand up to the Nazgul on Weathertop either he falls over again, he doesnt shout out an elvish prayer and stab the witchking, he whimpers and drops his sword, he doesnt refuse the elven horse because he refuses to leave his friends behind in danger, he gets plonked onto it without a word by Aragorn while other people make all the decisions for him, he doesnt defy the Riders at the Ford he falls down, yet again.

The Frodo we see in action throughout the first half of Fellowship is a weak willed, pathetic sort of a person compared to the one in the book.

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Re: Faramir and other changes

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:17 pm

nope. He is just an ordinary Hobbit in Fellowship, no more wimpy than any of the Others.
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