Questions for the Lore Masters.

I haven't found exactly what I was looking for, but the related term "bay" (meaning a red or brown horse with black points) goes back at least into Middle English.

It's also worth checking out the legends of Bayard, the magic horse of Renaud, in medieval literature. Tolkien would certainly have known him well, and I believe the influence on Shadowfax is easy to see.

I appreciate the information and work so far David. A while back I also read something on line somewhere about the word 'grey' in Middle-English, but can't remember where at the moment (if it's still around)! and in any case it wasn't 'horse-centered', so to speak.


Actually I expect the employment of 'a grey' in horse circles, or even in literature, to predate Tolkien (partly why I went to the OED), and have no real isssue with the notion that JRRT was aware of this, but writing a story is something different of course.

When people ask what colour Shadowfax is, often enough the issue of 'grey' being applied to what I would call a white horse (based on colour alone), comes up -- this is seemingly injected to suggest that Shadowfax could easily be what many people call white, or defend a white Shadowfax in some artwork, or the films, or something.

Again not that I won't be glad of future work, but if we can't connect it to Tolkien's writing in any compelling way, in my opinion all we will have gained is lore about something 'outside' of Middle-earth, in a sense...

... and really, who wants that

Right enough of this! If I am painting a picture of Shadowfax what bloody colour tin of paint do I buy?!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Right enough of this! If I am painting a picture of Shadowfax what bloody colour tin of paint do I buy?!

Unwhite

Actually I think the Hildebrandt brothers did a version of grey that I think fits -- although I reserve the right to retract that opinion in the event that I refresh my memory of such ancient artwork (last century), and think otherwise. Now where is that old Tolkien calendar...



Anyway buy grey in my opinion. Or mix 'a grey'

Shadowfax is white.

Silver! ( )

ok silver white then,

Elthir wrote:
'One at least is saved,' said Gandalf;' for there I got my grey horse, and I name him Greyfax. Not even the Chief of the Nine...' The Council of Elrond (I).

given that Tolkien knew he was writing for a primarily non-equestrian audience, doesn't this settle the matter in that The-Horse-Currently-Known-as-Shadowfax was supposed to be grey?

I never gave it much thought before, but in my imagination he would have been a light grey rather than brilliant white or dark grey. Otherwise he couldn't shine as described. Silvery grey would do it.

Elthir wrote:
According to Carpenter (Tolkien's official biographer) Tolkien enrolled in a calvary regiment King Edward's Horse and subsequently enjoyed the experience of galloping across the Kentish plains for a while. Hammond and Scull note JRRT joining King Edward's Horse in 1911, stating that he learned to ride as a result, if he did not already know.

This pleases me. It confirms in my mind that Tolkien knew what he was talking about in all the horse-related passages. He's not the sort of author to write "hoof" when he meant "foot", or "foot" when he meant "hoof". He wouldn't be able to misuse the word grey (noun or adjective) when applied to a horse without understanding that it was an offense against horsemanship.

But I just looked through the books and the quotations in this thread, and I'm not seeing the word "grey" applied to Shadowfax in Tolkien's text. Certainly words like silver, shade, shadow*** etc. suggest a horse that is grey in every sense of the word. (And certainly NOT white {sorry Mrs Figg}. if you've ever seen a white horse at night you'll know it looks nothing like shade that passes unseen. You can see them at 2 miles on a dark night!)

But does Tolkien ever explicitly describe Shadowfax as "Grey"? That's the crux.

this is a white horse and its how I imagine Shadowfax, he could shine like silver in the sun, and appear grey at dusk, pass like a ghostly shadow at night.

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I thought the movie shadowfax looked a bit scrawny to me.....

Doesn't look scrawny to me

@ chris

David H wrote: But I just looked through the books and the quotations in this thread, and I'm not seeing the word "grey" applied to Shadowfax in Tolkien's text. Certainly words like silver, shade, shadow*** etc. suggest a horse that is grey in every sense of the word. (...)
But does Tolkien ever explicitly describe Shadowfax as "Grey"? That's the crux.

Examples that come to mind at the moment: from The Grey Havens 'a great grey horse' and in Homeward Bound we have 'riding on his tall grey horse' as well as Nomenclature's 'shadow-grey' mane and coat.