Questions for the Lore Masters.

Thanks. That clarifies a lot. Although we seem to agree on more than we disagree, I was starting to see that we were starting from different assumptions, so I wanted to take the discussion back to first principles. Let me answer your questions now.

Elthir wrote:
I'm enjoying this discussion too, but I think the distinction between a noun and an adjective is relevant anyway. Outside of historical applications to a grey animal, for instance, the noun would appear to reflect a special use in horse-circles? No?

In a way, but the noun/adjective distinction isn't as great as it seems you're implying, which is why I suggested removing it to save confusion. It almost identical to the "blond" distinction. You can say, "She's a blond woman," or "She's a blond," with little difference in meaning. If you add modifiers (e.g. "She's a strawberry blond woman," or "she's a naturally blond woman," it can sometimes be easier to shorten the phrase, ( "She's a strawberry blond," or "She's a natural blond.")

Of course if there is common experience between the speaker and listener, blond jokes for example, you can get a different meaning by just saying, "She's a blond " Among people who work regularly with horses you can find these same sorts of prejudices, but to me it doesn't feel like the prejudice lives in the words. Words like grey, sorrel, brown, black, bay, roan, dun, palomino, buckskin etc. really just denote the colour families of horses, whether used as an adjective or as a noun.

Regarding general familiarity with horses (...) I guess that's why I had taken a certain general familiarity with horses for granted, which was clearly in error, but I think it's equally in error to assume that Tolkien would only have the horse sense of somebody who was born a century after him. To me that seems a very strange assertion, and one that would require some proof.

If you mean me, I don't think I've claimed that JRRT would only have the horse sense of someone born a century after him.

No you didn't. I guess I inferred it from your comment "as it is fairly specially employed within a certain community." Certainly now the language of horsemanship is specialized and restricted to a "a certain community", but a couple generations ago it was almost universal, spoken equally fluently by kings and plowmen.

And if you want to suggest that given the period concerned, plus his military training (relatively brief as it was), that Tolkien would be familiar enough with horses and horse-related terminology, I have no real issue with that as a combined reason, so to speak.

Well said. That's my point exactly.

My point has never been that Tolkien couldn't know these things, but rather that that alone doesn't mean he employed grey as horse terminology in his books, or intended his story to be read with the adjectives white and grey as doing more than raising a general (but distinct) colour image in the reader's mind.

Agreed. But I think we may disagree on the nature of the general colour image he expected to raise. I doubt that Tolkien could have foreseen the lack of basic equine knowledge that has become the modern norm. I'm referring here to the distinction you make between your friend and the average person.
" I guess it's likely enough that she would (in theory), given a quite notable connection to horses compared to the average person."

In any event my challenge has always been to connect this to the examples we find in JRRT's work -- especially published work but other writing as well.

You have many resources I don't, and I admire your meticulous approach to Tolkien scholarship. My understanding comes mostly from the standard published novels. I'm after all just a simple farmer, but I've always been struck by how Tolkien seems to feature food, trees, and horses when he writes, while brushing lightly over such things as ships, commerce, trades etc. that other authors might have featured. I think the pony Bill is a particularly sympathetic character, of a type that I suspect would only be written by a man who had bonded with a trustworthy pack pony at some time. Another horse connection? No proof of course....

Kinda beginning to feel like we're beating a dead horse though, doesn't it?

David H wrote: In a way, but the noun/adjective distinction isn't as great as it seems you're implying, which is why I suggested removing it to save confusion.

Among the horselords (well why not in a Tolkien forum, instead of 'horsemen') and those who speak as they do, this distinction is one thing, but if I were to find even once instance of the noun in any of Tolkien's writings, including HME even, I would think that that would be fairly notable here, so the adjective is possibly a very different animal in that sense.

Agreed. But I think we may disagree on the nature of the general colour image he expected to raise. I doubt that Tolkien could have foreseen the lack of basic equine knowledge that has become the modern norm. I'm referring here to the distinction you make between your friend and the average person. "I guess it's likely enough that she would (in theory), given a quite notable connection to horses compared to the average person."

In my opinion the colour-image JRRT appears to have expected has to be distinct enough from white in any case, as he does employ this word for certain horses. Beyond that I tend to imagine a darker tone for Shadowfax because of 'shadow-grey' but I admit that this need not be necessarily so, especially since Tolkien actually describes Hasufel as 'dark grey' now that I think of it.

(...) My understanding comes mostly from the standard published novels.

We can use these sources to start with, but first I find this interesting...

Words like grey, sorrel, brown, black, bay, roan, dun, palomino, buckskin etc. really just denote the colour families of horses, whether used as an adjective or as a noun.

... as the only words that I remember right now from Tolkien are white, black, grey (shadow-grey, dark-grey) and maybe brown? I would characterize these as fairly 'simple' colour words, although I've never read Tolkien with pen in hand to note every reference to horses, and very possibly the Lays especially could add to this list.

Shadowfax grey, shines like silver, shadow-grey
Asfaloth white
Snowmane (surprise!) white
Rohald (Gandalf's horse in the 1960 Hobbit) white
Hasufel 'dark-grey'
steeds of the Black Riders sepia... no wait black!

Other white steeds are mentioned when the Elves come to Minas Tirith, with Arwen riding a grey palfrey for example. Another instance I recall is the description of a company of knights riding grey horses into Minas Tirith -- this one I have to admit made me wonder a bit: all grey? but then again they don't need to be all the same shade of grey I guess. And this example...

'... but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.' Fall of Gondolin, Unfinished Tales, 1950s version

I can't really remember an instance of 'brown' at the moment, but as I say we could have plenty of other examples obviously; although again, those noted so far don't seem (to me) to necessarily illustrate Tolkien 'horsing around' all that much... sorry!


So far I think the use of colour-words is simply simpler. And with The Lord of the Rings at least we are still ultimately in the 1950s, and despite that Tolkien's Oxford wasn't exactly London he can hardly have been unaware that his potential audience was going to include folk, including 'youngish' folk, growing up in cities in various countries.

Wow, Elthir, that's fascinating! It seems that ALL of the described horses in Middle Earth come from a very narrow colour pool (probably gene pool), and they could even potentially all be greys That would certainly explain there being no need to use the word! (Though you would normally only find a very young grey who was actually black, so I'm not actually suggesting this).

Are there other colors represented among the ponies?

Now hold your horses (well I couldn't resist)!

We don't have all the examples yet... the Rohirrim are also riding grey horses when they meet Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, but they note that few black horses are left to them, due to thieving orcs.


I'll see if anything else turns up on the ponies or in the Lays, if I have the time.

Elthir wrote: And with The Lord of the Rings at least we are still ultimately in the 1950s, and despite that Tolkien's Oxford wasn't exactly London he can hardly have been unaware that his potential audience was going to include folk, including 'youngish' folk, growing up in cities in various countries.

Could you clarify this, please? You're not suggesting that Tolkien was intentionally "dumbing down" LotR for future audiences, are you? If so, I think that might be worthy of a thread of its own. (I'd love to see Petty set his teeth into that one! )

Magnolia is a kind of grey white with a hint of beige, I would go for that.

Elthir wrote:
Shadowfax grey, shines like silver, shadow-grey

Petty, it sounds like silver automotive paint is what you're looking for.

Be careful with the paintbrush, especially around the sensitive bits, and watch out for the heels!

I'd suggest a water based paint, not paint with harsh chemicals.

David H wrote: Could you clarify this, please? You're not suggesting that Tolkien was intentionally "dumbing down" LotR for future audiences, are you?

The 1950s isn't the future as far as The Lord of the Rings goes of course, although JRRT began it much earlier anyway, and as a sequel to a book for younger readers as well. Did Tolkien make a choice in this matter based on a potential younger audience, mixed with the fact that maybe he thought enough 'city folk' (and it's not like we are in the 1800s here) might not get any meaning behind any intended 'horse references' in any case?

Admittedly even raising the notion is to raise a notably slim possibility; and even if he had made a decision initially, JRRT need not have held to it when the 'sequel' to The Hobbit progressed.



But back to Tolkien's examples: do they really seem all that horse-related? given no nouns ('a grey' or 'greys') as yet, for example. Should I be thinking about what 'white' means in horse-circles, beyond the colour image? And why white and grey in the same sentence if 'grey' in horse-terminology refers to a range of colours that includes white?

Do the examples so far really seem to reflect Tolkien employing horse-terminology rather than adjectives denoting colour?

White: One of the rarest colors, a white horse has white hair and fully or largely unpigmented (pink) skin. These horses are born white, with blue or brown eyes, and remain white for life. The vast majority of so-called "white" horses are actually grays with a fully white hair coat.

Wikipedia

Not that I should trust this, given some of Wikipedia's pages on things Tolkien at least! Hmm, where is my horse sense?

Elthir wrote:
But moving again to Tolkien's examples: what's your reaction to the descriptions raised so far? Do they really seem all that horse-related? given no nouns ('a grey' or 'greys') as yet? Should I be thinking about what 'white' means in horse-circles, beyond the colour image? And why white and grey in the same sentence if 'grey' in horse-terminology refers to a range of colours that includes white? Wikipedia states that:

White: One of the rarest colors, a white horse has white hair and fully or largely unpigmented (pink) skin. These horses are born white, with blue or brown eyes, and remain white for life. The vast majority of so-called "white" horses are actually grays with a fully white hair coat.

Everything so far makes sense without going outside of standard horse-lord usage. "White" could be taken several ways. If Middle Earth had no genetic white color (and I suspect this may be so based on the absence of any mention of white markings on feet or faces) then white hair might be indicative of age and imply wisdom in a greying horse, much like with a person.

If however there is a genetic white colour, then, although they're naturally somewhat rare in this world, they do occur often enough, and they can be bred for. http://cowboyfrank.net/fortvalley/breeds/AmericanAlbino.htm (conformation on these is sometimes poor, being bred simply for colour, but it proves the principle.)

I think that it's fair to assume that among the Elves and the men of Rohan there were competent horse breeders.

I have a question for the Lore Masters, what if? should it? does he? and, when? take your time I aint in a hurry.