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Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:57 pm

Couldn't find this anywhere on PT, so starting a new one. Just to get things going: I must say, there are a number of inconsistencies or things that don't make very much sense in these books. I was reading the Goblet of Fire and I started wondering: Is it explained somewhere how Voldemort got his wand back? I mean, after he failed to kill Harry the wand must've been dropped in the Potters' house? Yet in the book he uses the very same wand as he used when he tried to kill Harry! Have I missed something or does this not make sense?

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Kafria on Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:59 pm

It's certainly never explained that I remember.

I suppose it is possible that deatheaters were with him and collected it? This would then have had to be stored until after Prisonner of Azkaban and the Pettigrew charged with collecting it? In fact as Pettigrew was tracked down after the attack on the Potters it is possible he had it and hid it before Sirius found him?

I know - a lot of ifs! Rolling Eyes

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:01 pm

Yeah, both of our Harry Potter threads are MIA thanks to the transition. Sad

My first thought was that Wormtail retrieved Voldemort's wand since he was one of the few who knew where James and Lily were, and thus would have been one of the first to be able to get to the scene, were he so inclined. I don't know if he would have been able to hide it while disguised as a rat; I don't recall what the books have to say about clothes and Animagi, and the films are inconsistent on that note. If the clothes just go to some sort of trans-dimensional cloakroom for the duration of the transformation, it's possible that Wormtail could have had Voldemort's wand with him the whole time.

That doesn't strike me as the most plausible theory, but if Wormtail didn't pick it up, then I would think someone from the Ministry would have. Perhaps it was in a vault and Voldemort and/or Wormtail used the Imperius Curse to have someone retrieve it after his return to Britain.
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Gandalf's Beard on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:10 am

Eldorion wrote:Yeah, both of our Harry Potter threads are MIA thanks to the transition. Sad

My first thought was that Wormtail retrieved Voldemort's wand since he was one of the few who knew where James and Lily were, and thus would have been one of the first to be able to get to the scene, were he so inclined. I don't know if he would have been able to hide it while disguised as a rat; I don't recall what the books have to say about clothes and Animagi, and the films are inconsistent on that note. If the clothes just go to some sort of trans-dimensional cloakroom for the duration of the transformation, it's possible that Wormtail could have had Voldemort's wand with him the whole time.

That doesn't strike me as the most plausible theory, but if Wormtail didn't pick it up, then I would think someone from the Ministry would have. Perhaps it was in a vault and Voldemort and/or Wormtail used the Imperius Curse to have someone retrieve it after his return to Britain.

Actually i think your hypothesis makes the most sense. McGonagall, if I recall correctly, actually had markings in cat form where her glasses would be. And in all the other Animagi transformations clothes and accessories are changed along with the person too. So it's no stretch to think that Wormtail might have had it. But if I recall correctly Wormtail used his own wand, and probably had Bertha Jorkin's wand too in book four. And I think Lucius Malfoy had Voldemort's wand and returned it to him at the end of book 4.

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:19 am

This is what I get for bringing mainly Tolkien books to school, not realizing I would need to do HP lore as well! Now I want to check and see if there's any mention of Lucius holding Voldemort's wand. Laughing

That would make sense, though the one question I have is how Lucius recovered it from the site of the attack. Although, come to think of it, he could have just bribed a ministry official to give him the wand after the fact. He certainly had enough money and influence.
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:23 am

Well, now I can at least make it make sense Laughing Some nice theories here. I think I prefer the one where the wand was taken to the ministry, and from there found its way to Malfoy or some other DE.

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Gandalf's Beard on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:39 am

Eldorion wrote:This is what I get for bringing mainly Tolkien books to school, not realizing I would need to do HP lore as well! Now I want to check and see if there's any mention of Lucius holding Voldemort's wand. Laughing

That would make sense, though the one question I have is how Lucius recovered it from the site of the attack. Although, come to think of it, he could have just bribed a ministry official to give him the wand after the fact. He certainly had enough money and influence.

Lucius may have actually been one of the Death Eaters present when Voldemort killed Harry's parents. Though it is just as likely that Wormtail was present and passed it on to Lucius before turning into a Rat.

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:58 am

Didn't the flashback to Voldemort killing James and Lily in Deathly Hallows suggest that he was alone? I'd check but I don't have the HP books handy, can anyone confirm or deny this?
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Gandalf's Beard on Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:23 am

I just checked the end of Goblet of Fire (the book). After Voldy is reconstituted, he tells Wormtail to robe him. Then out of Voldy's robes, Voldy pulls out his wand. So Wormtail had to have been the one to pick up Voldy's Robes and Wand after Voldy gets zapped when he kills Harry's Mum and Dad. He must have stashed it in a safe place (possibly the Riddles' house) before turning into a Rat and becoming Ron Weasley's pet.

Which all makes sense as Wormtail is the one who betrayed Harry's Parents. This certainly implies that Wormtail was with Voldemort when Voldy killed Harry's Mum and Dad. Wormtail would have had little compunction at killing Harry's parents as he had recently murdered 13 muggles and framed Sirius.

The Flashback you remember is probably from the films. And it is never actually explicitly stated in the books or in the movies that Voldemort was alone when he killed Harry's parents.

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:16 am

Now I had to go check the HP Lexicon to make sure I hadn't imagined it. Rolling Eyes They refer to it as a "replay", and apparently it's in Chapter 17. Smile
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Squach on Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:33 pm

I saw The Deathly Hallows pt 1 in November. I was impressed but it took quite a long time to really get the story started. I am looking forward to pt 2 and i hope it will serve as a good finale. It's a bit weord when you look back at the first films and the cast are really tiny and cute!

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ally on Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:47 pm

It's why Harry Potter movies are so much more popular, than say things like Twilight, the fan base has grown as the actors grow. Harry Potter defined my childhood. I'd say without reading the books I'd have never gotten into fantasy lit, and proably would have never read LOTR! Mad

DH is one of the better potter movies too- actually I lie. It is the best!

I know it's not perfect but I'd say that Harry Potter WILL stand the test of time (for a while at least!) Very Happy Smile
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:55 pm

Ally wrote:It's why Harry Potter movies are so much more popular, than say things like Twilight, the fan base has grown as the actors grow. Harry Potter defined my childhood. I'd say without reading the books I'd have never gotten into fantasy lit, and proably would have never read LOTR! Mad

DH is one of the better potter movies too- actually I lie. It is the best!

I know it's not perfect but I'd say that Harry Potter WILL stand the test of time (for a while at least!) Very Happy Smile

I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Laughing Deathly Hallows 1 was definitely the best HP film so far; the actors have really grown into their own, they were able to tell a serious story (though with some much-needed some relief), and the cinematography was absolutely gorgeous. Very Happy I am really looking forward to DH2, and I hope it can be as good as the first part. Cool

I don't know how well remember the films will be, I'd say that at least half of them are only mediocre to decent, but the books will be - I think - classics for generations to come. cheers
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:34 pm

Most of the films are, at best, crap to mediocre :p I agree about the books, though, still love them Very Happy

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Gandalf's Beard on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:57 pm

I think the movies are--overall--very good. It's just that it's really impossible to cram an 800 to 900 page novel into a 2 1/2 hour movie without losing a lot of great stuff. But I think Yates did a bang-up job making 5 into a coherent film despite all the missing stuff. And it is nothing short of miraculous that he got so much of the book into HBP (#6) Shocked , which was a brilliant movie.

And of course Deathly Hallows part 1 is even more incredibly close to the book (because he has time to do the story right). The only part I wished he had got in, was the Dudley Dursley scene in which he says good bye to Harry and seems to have finally come to like Harry.

I think Yates is the best director in the Potter franchise (though Chris Columbus out-did himself in the first 2 films. They were really his creative peak. They are the best films he's ever made). Yates' imagery and dark atmospherics are fantastic, and I love the way he uses The Daily Prophet to pass on a lot of information to the audience that he would otherwise not have been able to convey due to time restrictions.

Alphonso Cuaron was great on #3 , except for the dodgy CGI Werewolf (and CGI dog for Sirius???? Suspect). But other than that, he really did the book justice and gave the film some great atmospherics. The weakest film was really GoF, which had a lot of well done scenes (and one of the best ever film dragons), but was not very cohesive at all, and the pacing was way off.

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Why the Steven Seagal shooting kids GIF in my signature this last week??? To be perfectly honest, I didn't know why I posted it until tonight! I have been posting a lot on FB the past week about the Culture of Paranoia, Guns, and Violence in the US. The GIF reflected some of my visceral reactions to the School and Mall shootings!

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"Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence."--Carl Sagan
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:06 pm

I was listening to the audiobook of The Order of the Phoenix while working this weekend (I find 12 hour sessions go much faster if you've got a book to listen to Smile ) and at the end of it I came across another one of those major inconsistencies I mentioned in the first post: Voldemort needs Harry to retrieve the Prophecy from the Department of Mysteries because he can't go into the Ministry of Magic himself. However, his Death Eathers have no problems apparating directly to the Hall of Prophecies.

Why didn't Voldemort do this? He could've apparated there, grabbed the Prophecy and disapparated immediately, and it would've taken him 30 seconds. These books are great, and fantasy books are often flooded with inconsitencies so I'm usually not that bothered with them, but here's an eight hundred pages long book based on one major inconsistency. Can someone give me one good reason why Voldemort could not have done this himself, or am I forced to accept this nonsense? Mad

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:31 pm

I don't think I'd be much help. I always thought it was ridiculous how the Death Eaters managed to empty the entire Ministry, sneak in, and fight a pitched battle at 5 o'clock in the afternoon. The best reason I could think of was that they had staged some sort of emergency (what's the Wizarding equivalent of a gas leak? Laughing ) to get people to clear out, but apparently the Ministry must have the security of a shopping mall and no way of contacting outside help (if only magic didn't interfere with electronics, they could have walkie-talkies!). I hadn't really thought of the Voldemort thing, mainly because this was already making me crabbit. And at a time when I didn't even know what crabbit was! Mad
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:37 pm

Your post makes the whole thing worse I'm afraid - they had the whole ministry emptied: if Voldemort for some unexplained reason is unable to apparate there, why didn't he just walk in when the Ministry was empty?

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:56 am

I've got no idea. I'm sure that if asked JKR could come up with some handwave magic, but Rolling Eyes
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ally on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:09 pm

Voldermort could have hypothetically apparated into the hall of prophecies (I mean what kind of dark lord is he if kids can get through security while the strongest wizard of all time for some reason can not) Plus Mr Weasley apprates to work, so we must assume he could have, but decided not to apprate. Why he chose this is open to debate. Maybe he felt that Death Eaters who were trusted within the MOM, and would have easy access to the ministry, would make it easier to obtain the retrieving the Prophecy. It would be much easier- he's supposed to be dead. Much better to have one massive attack with Harry, the chosen one dead, he could then reveal himself with really nothing to stop him. Why take the risk of being seen?

Yeah, so basically, he could have gotten the prophecy himself very easily, but he preferred to stay undercover as long as possible, so when the wizzarding community realizes he's back, he has gained all his former strength.

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:25 pm

True, but he still could have apparated directly infront of the prophecy (or at least very close to it) sometime during the night, grabbed it and disapparated, and nobody would have seen him. scratch

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ally on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:41 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:True, but he still could have apparated directly infront of the prophecy (or at least very close to it) sometime during the night, grabbed it and disapparated, and nobody would have seen him. scratch

Ah yes, but prophecies can only be taken by whom that the prophecy is about.. This is why Voldemort lured Harry to the Ministry, because his and his Death Eaters couldn't have retrieved it on their own. Voldemort couldn't take it on his own (he's no.1 on the wanted list, it was about 50/50 whether he would succeed, and if he didn't, the whole wizzarding community would be preparing, and wasn't even back to his former strength. Also he's unsure about Harry's visions (remember Mr Weasley getting attacked) so maybe he was scared that the visions, false and true, would give him away. Voldermort knew that Dumbledore would take Potter's word and then the whole wizzarding society would be on voldy's tail, and if he hadn't managed to get the prophecy before getting away, he may never get it, not with all the added security!

Hmm, maybe! Very Happy
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:02 pm

I thought both Harry and Voldemort could take it, since it is about both of them, or am I mistaken?

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ally on Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:09 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:I thought both Harry and Voldemort could take it, since it is about both of them, or am I mistaken?

Whoops! Yes you're quite right, Voldemort, Harry and possibly Neville are the only ones who could retrieve the prophecy. I'm my view Voldemort could have quite easily gotten in, but it wasn't worth the risk of being captured. Like most baddies, using your henchmen to take the prophecy, capture Harry and return both to him, would seem quite a appealing plan to him!
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:31 am

lol! He''s like a Bond villian but even dummer! "I will kill you Mr Bond in this long winded escapable trap", or in this case "I could just go get the prophecy, instead I will use convulsed means to get it that will ultimately result in putting myself at risk of complete defeat for no apparent reason".
lol Brilliant! Glad I thought the first book was a big pile of poorly written, ripped off nonsense and never went any further. Dear o dear. lol!

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