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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:17 am

I thought it got marginally better in the second half but it still comes across as fanfiction, and not especially good fanfiction, in far too many parts. The plot is definitely the weakest part. I'm not a huge fan of time travel stories in general but there are some I like, including Prisoner of Azkaban. This ... no.

Spoiler:
Some people on another forum I visit are arguing that the time travel retcon is justified since the Time Turner used in the play was designed to be different from the ones we see in the books. Admittedly, this negates the criticism that there's a plot hole regarding the non-use of long "distance" time travel in the past, but going from closed loop time travel to alternate universes is a far more radical change and has more to do with the underlying physics of the world than the spells used to create the Time Turner. And I do find it a little hard to swallow that such a powerful magical artifact could have been made by Nott apparently in his basement unless he's some sort of genius, which I guess you could read into things but the play doesn't really go there.

There was a lot of really weird stuff like

Spoiler:
turning the trolley witch into a Terminator; what the fuck were they going for with that?

and the characterization in the first act is a very jarring shift from the glimpse seen in the Epilogue and it just generally doesn't feel like an organic part of the HP universe. It's not without its positive qualities but it's not something I feel any compunction about excluding from my mind when I re-read the books or think about the fictional world. I'm sure seeing the actual theatrical production goes some way towards salvaging the experience (especially if the acting and effects are as good as the critics say) and I know there are people who enjoyed just reading the script book as well, though I don't think it will be remembered especially well once the honeymoon period passes (same as we saw with AUJ and many other examples). But only time will tell (pun semi-intended).
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:43 am

Laughing



{{{Exactly what I'm doing right now Razz}}}
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:10 am

The more I think about this and especially reading others comments the more it just doesn't work. I mean, thinking the story is crap is me making a subjective statement about taste, but it's just not compatible with the established HP universe of the books.

Spoiler:
Harry being able to speak Parseltongue again for a meaningless invented reason (which even the characters aren't really convinced by).

Everyone being able to see the Potters' house and Albus and Scorpius seeing the family going out for a walk despite them canonically being under the protection of the Fidelius Charm and unable to go outside (cf Lily's letter in DH, ch. 10).

Voldemort, the sociopathic, inhuman, obsessed with immortality, not wanting to be close or connected to anyone villain, either willing fathered a child, or was unaware that one of his closest followers was pregnant and gave birth to his child (and he's supposed to be an amazing Legilimens). Even if you can imagine Voldemort having sex with Bellatrix, which I think is at least somewhat questionable since there was never any indication that he reciprocated her feelings or was interested in sex), him okay with becoming a father seems completely OOC to me. Why should he need or even want an heir, when his life's goal was immortality?

The overwriting of most of what was implied by the Epilogue.

Some extremely questionable decisions regarding characterization. Ron was too drunk to remember his wedding (in the primary timeline, no less). Cedric became a Death Eater because he was humiliated during one of the tasks (in an alternate timeline). Hermione (also in an alternate timeline) became at least as sadistic teacher as Snape because Ron never got jealous of her and Krum and as such didn't make any moves towards starting a romantic relationship with Hermione. I guess we're meant to believe Hermione never took any initiative on her own with this, even though they both had feelings towards each other even decades later? Not to mention that alt!Hermione is not just bitter but actively cruel to kids as a result, which seems wildly out of line with her established characterization and also taps into some bullshit stereotypes about single adult women.

The aforementioned stuff with the mechanics of time travel.

EDIT: so yeah, I didn't do a very good job pretending it didn't exist, though it's even easier to mentally separate it from my "headcanon" than I expected. Despite the marketing as "the eighth Harry Potter story" they were clearly not aiming for a particularly cohesive fit with the original seven novels (or if they were ... well, I think it'd be uncharitable to assume that).
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by malickfan on Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:01 am

Eldorion wrote:The more I think about this and especially reading others comments the more it just doesn't work. I mean, thinking the story is crap is me making a subjective statement about taste, but it's just not compatible with the established HP universe of the books.

Spoiler:
Harry being able to speak Parseltongue again for a meaningless invented reason (which even the characters aren't really convinced by).

Everyone being able to see the Potters' house and Albus and Scorpius seeing the family going out for a walk despite them canonically being under the protection of the Fidelius Charm and unable to go outside (cf Lily's letter in DH, ch. 10).

Voldemort, the sociopathic, inhuman, obsessed with immortality, not wanting to be close or connected to anyone villain, either willing fathered a child, or was unaware that one of his closest followers was pregnant and gave birth to his child (and he's supposed to be an amazing Legilimens). Even if you can imagine Voldemort having sex with Bellatrix, which I think is at least somewhat questionable since there was never any indication that he reciprocated her feelings or was interested in sex), him okay with becoming a father seems completely OOC to me. Why should he need or even want an heir, when his life's goal was immortality?

The overwriting of most of what was implied by the Epilogue.

Some extremely questionable decisions regarding characterization. Ron was too drunk to remember his wedding (in the primary timeline, no less). Cedric became a Death Eater because he was humiliated during one of the tasks (in an alternate timeline). Hermione (also in an alternate timeline) became at least as sadistic teacher as Snape because Ron never got jealous of her and Krum and as such didn't make any moves towards starting a romantic relationship with Hermione. I guess we're meant to believe Hermione never took any initiative on her own with this, even though they both had feelings towards each other even decades later? Not to mention that alt!Hermione is not just bitter but actively cruel to kids as a result, which seems wildly out of line with her established characterization and also taps into some bullshit stereotypes about single adult women.

The aforementioned stuff with the mechanics of time travel.

EDIT: so yeah, I didn't do a very good job pretending it didn't exist, though it's even easier to mentally separate it from my "headcanon" than I expected. Despite the marketing as "the eighth Harry Potter story" they were clearly not aiming for a particularly cohesive fit with the original seven novels (or if they were ... well, I think it'd be uncharitable to assume that).

Agree with all of that, also:

Spoiler:
Hermione as Minister Of Magic? Really? She's far too self critical, nosy, etc to have the diplomacy skills necessary for MOM i.m.o...and she's thick enough to leave her office unlocked with the time turner unguarded...come to think of it, Scorpius and Albus got in and out surprisingly easy i.m.o

How did Bellatrix Lestrange keep her pregnancy secret, surely snape or malfoy would have picked up on it at some point?

Why were Hermione and Ron hiding so close to the school if they were the most wanted people in the world? Surely some of the staff would have been aware of the secret passages by now?

Hated the way Ron was written in CC, less like the flawed but loyal best friend from the books, more like the selfish 'funny' sidekick from the Movies.

Cedric, a dumb but kind hearted Hufflepuff became a death eater?  Rolling Eyes

So er, what about Ron and Hermione's son, and Harry's other kids why aren't they mentioned?


...The more I think about it the less I like it...and I thought The Hobbit films were disappointing...



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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:30 pm

After I skimmed through that leaked script you posted a while back I lost what little interest I had in it - it sounds so utterly shitty that I have to wonder if she was high when she wrote or if Petty was right and she just stole everything she wrote in the HP books. I refuse to believe the latter is true, so I guess she was high, and decided to make a complete joke of the entire HP series and universe for fun. Perhaps she started out with an outline that looked good, then she began to write the whole thing out and suddenly it was all chaos and not such a good idea after all, as it often is with writing. She should've tossed it in the bin, but perhaps she had a deadline or whatever. I'm struggling to find a reasonable explanation here scratch

And the more I read about it (in this thread), the worse it seems to get. There were some major internal issues in the HP universe to begin with, but this takes the bloody cake. HP was flawed at times, but nonetheless highly enjoyable. I'm not going to ruin the series for myself by reading this.

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:40 pm

Come to think about it, she should've written a prequel instead, about how the first Order of the Phoenix came to be and their resistance and battle against Voldemort. There are all these great characters to write about - Harry's parents, Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore in his prime(-ish), Snape as a young death eater, Voldemort on the rise - there's lots of story there already, no need for all this time-turner BS she's spewing out. That would've been cool, not ridiculous. Something darker than Tolkien's TH or GRRM's stories about Ser Duncan the Tall, perhaps, but some backstory to flesh out the story we already know. That I would've bought in an instant. Stop smoking, Rowling Suspect

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by malickfan on Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:16 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:After I skimmed through that leaked script you posted a while back I lost what little interest I had in it - it sounds so utterly shitty that I have to wonder if she was high when she wrote or if Petty was right and she just stole everything she wrote in the HP books. I refuse to believe the latter is true, so I guess she was high, and decided to make a complete joke of the entire HP series and universe for fun. Perhaps she started out with an outline that looked good, then she began to write the whole thing out and suddenly it was all chaos and not such a good idea after all, as it often is with writing. She should've tossed it in the bin, but perhaps she had a deadline or whatever. I'm struggling to find a reasonable explanation here scratch

And the more I read about it (in this thread), the worse it seems to get. There were some major internal issues in the HP universe to begin with, but this takes the bloody cake. HP was flawed at times, but nonetheless highly enjoyable. I'm not going to ruin the series for myself by reading this.

I'm not actually sure whether it was Rowling or the writers who came up with the plot, as I understand it the writers approached rowling about doing a stage show she had no story planned but drafted a basic outline which was then rewritten by the other writers (but that may be false), it certainly dosen't feel like it was written by Rowling, and I'm not going to consider it canon...

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by malickfan on Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:25 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:Come to think about it, she should've written a prequel instead

Or she could just leave the universe and characters alone, DH was the perfect ending i.m.o and if CC was the best story she could come up with for a continuation I'd rather the franchise just died instead...

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:56 pm

"DH was the perfect ending i.m.o" . Malick

Indeed, it was one of those rare perfect endings - you're right, she should've left it alone altogether. Though I would have liked to read that prequel.. Very Happy

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:30 pm

yep a prequel would have been cool, maybe the adventures of Sirius, but I don't intend to read this new book, it looks like tripe.
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:55 pm

Yeah.. do I even want to get into the details of this..? scratch

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by malickfan on Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:52 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Yeah.. do I even want to get into the details of this..? scratch

I recommend reading it, if only to say you did so, and perhaps better set yourself up for any more future disappointments Rowling might crank out in the future (though in fairness I don't think Rowling really wrote much beyond a brief story outline) ...you never know you might love it...the plot was so derivative I honestly struggled to have much of a strong opinion either way...that said there were certainly things I liked and whilst the story was bad it was quite enjoyable to read...

Of course neither me nor Eldo have seen the play, and the reading the script will only give a biased viewpoint against the format the story was conceived to be experienced in

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:50 pm

Okay, thanks. Smile After seeing a total of 15 seconds of the current GoTs season I feel my fortitude on holding out on underwhelming pop culture's at an all time high though. Razz

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:38 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Yeah.. do I even want to get into the details of this..? scratch

I wouldn't recommend it except to people who already care about Harry Potter and are either completionists or want to form their own opinion since there has been a significant gulf between the overwhelmingly positive critical reviews and the majority fan response (at least among online fans).

It has some nice parts and some okay parts but on the whole I did not enjoy reading it. I thought the story depended heavily on contrivance and it lacked the richness and sense of depth that's always been one of the things I liked about Harry Potter. I'm sure actually seeing the play would go some way towards resolving this, though the relatively small cast and small number of things that happen would remain. (I say relative compared to the novels; I don't know much about plays but this appears to be a large and lavish production by theatrical standards, but I think it was inevitably gonna be thin compared to the richness a novel allows.) Scorpius was a pretty cool character but other than him, Albus, and Delphi most of the characters are established ones from the novels and I felt that much of the characterization there was inferior to what came before. I would have preferred a story that was less dependent on previous plots and characters, both because of my dislike of retcons and because it's more interesting to me than retreading old material.

Some of the dialogue (which Rowling appears to have had little to no involvement with) is pretty cringeworthy IMO but I've read other fan responses from people who liked it so Shrugging
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by malickfan on Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:57 pm

Things I liked:

Spoiler:


-Draco and Harry's reluctant friendship, and the attempt to delve deeper into Draco's state of mind
-Albus and Scorpius were immediately quite likeable
-Some of the Ron/Hermione moments were kinda adorable (if somewhat undermined by Ron eating something every five minutes, and apparently getting drunk at the wedding)
-McGoganll's still something of a badass aged, what 100?
-Some of the Dialogue
-The dreams of young Harry and the Dursley's would have been a nice edition to the canon, as with Petunia keeping the blanket


As much as I disliked the story I'm still very curious as to how it works on stage, maybe they'll do a DVD release...


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Re: Harry Potter

Post by malickfan on Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:59 pm

One of the more extreme reactions I've read 'There were 7 novels and 7 horcruxes' i.e implying Rowling got greedy with an 8th part and murdered the soul of the Potter franchise Laughing Rolling Eyes

(Though there were a surprisingly large amount of characters killed off between DH and CC...)

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Bluebottle on Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:08 am

Eldorion wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:Yeah.. do I even want to get into the details of this..? scratch

I wouldn't recommend it except to people who already care about Harry Potter and are either completionists or want to form their own opinion since there has been a significant gulf between the overwhelmingly positive critical reviews and the majority fan response (at least among online fans).

It has some nice parts and some okay parts but on the whole I did not enjoy reading it. I thought the story depended heavily on contrivance and it lacked the richness and sense of depth that's always been one of the things I liked about Harry Potter. I'm sure actually seeing the play would go some way towards resolving this, though the relatively small cast and small number of things that happen would remain. (I say relative compared to the novels; I don't know much about plays but this appears to be a large and lavish production by theatrical standards, but I think it was inevitably gonna be thin compared to the richness a novel allows.) Scorpius was a pretty cool character but other than him, Albus, and Delphi most of the characters are established ones from the novels and I felt that much of the characterization there was inferior to what came before. I would have preferred a story that was less dependent on previous plots and characters, both because of my dislike of retcons and because it's more interesting to me than retreading old material.

Some of the dialogue (which Rowling appears to have had little to no involvement with) is pretty cringeworthy IMO but I've read other fan responses from people who liked it so Shrugging

So, a bit like Legend of Korra then? Razz

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:50 pm

It did feel a lot like my experience with Korra except that I actually loved Korra for the first half or so of Book 1. The Avatar continuation comics would be a closer analogy. No
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Bluebottle on Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:46 pm

Oh, that's a shame, I've only read the first couple of pages of that and was kind of liking it. Neutral

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:49 am

I mean, don't let me stop you from trying and potentially enjoying them yourself, but I thought they were awful. Razz Undid a ton of characterization and then essentially did a retread of Book 3, at least in the first one (The Promise). All just my opinion, of course. The next ones got progressively better but not enough for me to keep reading them after Korra ended and my Avatar fandom went on the backburner.
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Eldorion on Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:38 pm

Pottermore is releasing three e-books in September that combine some of the writing that Rowling has published on the site as well as some previously unseen stuff. She has previously said that the HP encyclopedia project was superseded by Pottermore so this is probably the closest we'll get to the encyclopedia.

https://www.pottermore.com/news/how-pottermore-concocted-pottermore-presents

I've been deeply unimpressed by much of the Pottermore material (and Cursed Child has me veering towards a more minimalist approach to the Potter "canon" in general) so I'll be passing, but I figured some people on here might be interested.
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Re: Harry Potter

Post by halfwise on Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:25 pm

Reading all this it seems like Cursed Child headed in the same direction that Tolkien's abandoned sequel (the New Shadow) did: with all the glory gone the story descends into banality. Tolkien actually had street gangs in Minas Tirith. But he also had the wisdom to realize what was happening and abandon it.

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by malickfan on Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:19 am



Laughing Razz :facepalm:

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Radaghast on Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:16 pm

malickfan wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:Hermione. Why? why did they feel the necessity? I would refuse to watch it just because of the pc idiot casting.

In fairness I don't think there's anything in the books that definitely confirms her as white Shrugging
There's the 10 years of movies with a white actress playing the part that kind of nails it down, though Shrugging

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Re: Harry Potter

Post by Radaghast on Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:18 pm

I got HPCC for my birthday for some reason. I liked the books but I'm not  huge fan or anything.

Anyway, I was expecting good things from this one, given the glowing endorsement by Rowling on the book jacket. But, having read it, I can honestly say, without hyperbole, that it's the worst thing I've ever read Mad I've seen it compared to the fan fiction project "My Immortal" which I haven't read but I've read a little about it and the comparison seems apt.

I don't care how good the play is. The script SUCKS. Are there any other ways I can emphasize that? I frankly can't believe Rowling put her name on this.

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