Doctor Who [3]

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:59 am

Is that those damned Unwritten Rules again, which are sometimes most convenient, but at other times, Not!? Mad

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:06 am

Orwell wrote:And btw Eldo, what's all this closing Repeat Threads business... Are you on an Tidy-up-un-messingness Mission or something? Mad

It's an automatic feature of the forum software to split threads and lock the old ones. I appreciate it because eventually it becomes nearly impossible to navigate threads and find specific posts from the past.
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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:46 am

Oh my Sweet Eru! Shocked What perfectly Orwellian times we live in! pale

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:48 am

Really? I thought this was more of an Eldorionian era. king
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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:50 am

Thank goodness for that! Shocked Can you begin to imagine the abuses if I was in charge! Very Happy


Last edited by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:51 am

It should, here, be a bloody Whovian Era!!! Mad

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:51 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:It should, here, be a bloody Whovian Era!!! Mad

Oh tush! Rolling Eyes

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:55 am

Orwell wrote:Thank goodness for that! Shocked Can you begin to imagine the abuses if I was in charge! Very Happy

I don't think I want to even try...
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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:57 am

Still be better than putting a Banks in charge.

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by odo banks on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:30 am

Hey! I want to be a Moderator! If a Scotshobbit is eligible, surely I'm more than qualified... I mean... because I'm a respectable hobbit... I'm not suggesting I have equally (or superior!) vulgar habits as Mr Tyrant does! Extremely Crabbit

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:34 am

{{{Sorry Odo- Eldo has strict rules- you know what he is like about possible power blocks moving against him- with all your business deals, and connections in the Sherriffs dept theres no way he will let you in. Come and have a duckie to console yourself Twisted Evil }}}

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Eldorion on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:36 am

Don't forget that I have my on you as well after your attempted coup, Petty. cyclops
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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:39 am

That was a genuine People Republic of Forumshire Uprising, you should thank me that I led it so well until your return..... and overwhelming victory. (And Im sure I saw the Banks company stamp on the butt cheeks of all those trolls you mysteriously had)

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:11 pm

From Doctor Who Confidential: RTD and Moffat give their thoughts on the first 8 Doctors, the actors who played them and what aspects they brought to the Doctor.



It occured to me whilst watching that RTD's era and Pertwee's, neither of which are among my personnal favourite periods, that both share something in common. They were the right thing for their times- Pertwee's Doctor was in a world of James Bond, Bruce Lee and the like- it fitted the times but not all of it my own tastes. But without it being like that at that time the show might not have stayed popular and could have ended.
Similarly RTD's worked perfectly in terms of re-establishing the show as quality TV, not some cheap geek sideshow it had become during the Colin Baker/McCoy years.
By grounding it in Roses everyday life, bringing her family into it, featuring domestic situations and setting the majority of the early stories on Earth (usually in London) it got people who previoulsy didn't think to watch a sci-fi watching and hooked.

But whilst some of my all time favourite Doctor Who moments are in the RTD era, there is are few entire episodes I enjoy, moments of pure genius are next to get out jail free scripting ploys. Characters like Mickey are thinly drawn with no purpose but to serve as contrast to Rose, as Kafria said. There are just to many jarring moments for me.

And that would seem Mrs Figg to be how you feel about the Moffat era. I'm afraid thats just the way it is with Who, to survive it reflects its times-Moffats Who is like our world: a lot of information that seems confusing and comes at you from all directions fast. Moffats Doctor is the man who can take all that in, work out whats it all really means and then sort it out and incorporate it into a joke (with diagram). Very Happy


Nice fan vid for the anniversary with all the Doctors

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:47 pm

ok I will just give one example of why I dislike Moffats story lines and then I will shut up (for a bit) . I will use spoilers for those who havent seen the episode yest.
Its a question I want to ask.

Spoiler:
The episode where the older Amy is abandoned outside the Tardis, because of some flimsy Paradox theory, ask yourself this. If the older Amy had been on the inside and the younger Amy was on the outside about to be lost forever, would the Doctor have left her? would Rory have left her? and my answer is yes if it had been Smith, and no if it had been Eccleston. Eccleston would have found a way to save her because he loved her and would never have abandoned her without moving heaven or earth. If my older self had been left behind I would have never forgiven the Doctor, it is still ME whatever age after all. If the younger Amy had been left behind how would You feel about it? would you find it unfair? wrong? would the public have found it wrong and distressing? and why? Is it because the premiss is that an older Amy is somehow a lesser person? not as important or valid? Its a point I think and it makes me realize what values people have today, I find it distastful and cold, RTD would never have done that, he had the Doctor being compassionate even to his enemies.
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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:42 pm

I entirely disagree with your analysis Mrs Figg.
Spoiler:

That older Amy exists at all is the Doctors fault. Its his cavalier attitude to life which creates the problem.
This is the point of the scene between Rory and the Doctor (Rory is talking to the Doctor via a pair of two way transmitting sunglasses).

The Doctor: Rory—
Rory: This is your fault.
The Doctor: I'm so sorry, but Rory.
Rory: No! This is your fault! You should look in a history book once in awhile, see if there's an outbreak of plague or not.
The Doctor: That is not how I travel.
Rory: Then I do not want to travel with you! {he throws down the glasses}

The Doctor therefore sees it as his responsability to put this right and get Amy back. Everything he is doing is to right his own mistake. So if young Amy was on the outside there is no way he would have left her. Everything he does, including shutting the door on old Amy is to restore everything to how it should be. To get young Amy back. If old Amy had been on the inside he would have somehow tricked her out of the Tardis and got young Amy back.


The Time Paradox is not a flimsy excuse either- it is a well established part of Doctor Who canon that the Tardis cannot stand a paradox- as a living thing that senses Time she just can't bear them and they can serieously damage her.
This is has not only come up in other 11's episodes but is also a major feature of the Master/Tennant expisodes where the TARDIS is basically tortured and is a pulsing red when the Master uses it to maintain a massive paradox- the year that never was.
The Doctor is right when he says the Tardis couldn't contain the paradox- where he is cold is in lying to old Amy that it could so she would go along with the plan. Which was the only way to restore young Amy to where she should be.


I dont know how you got the message old Amy is a lesser person.
The entire end sequences emotional power relies on you feeling that old Amy is just as legimate as young- it wouldn't be the painful emotional kick it is if the viewer didnt think old Amy had just as much a right to live as young.
This is what the Doctor does- he can and will make the really hard choices, like wiping out his own race, if its the only option left to do to make things right.

The Doctor: I'm sorry.
Rory: What are you doing?
The Doctor: I lied to her, Rory. There can never be two Amys in the TARDIS. The paradox would be too massive.
Rory: You can't leave her, she'll die!
The Doctor: No, she'll never have existed. When we save our Amy this future won't have happened.
Rory: She happened! She's there!
Future Amy: I trusted you!
The Doctor: No, she's not real.
Rory: She is real. Let her in.
The Doctor: Look, we keep this Amy, we leave ours. There can only be one Amy in the TARDIS. Which one do you want?! {he puts Rory's hand on the lock} Your choice.


But in this case, brilliantly he passes the decision onto Rory because the entire episode is all about Amy and Rory's love for each other.
When the moment comes when the Doctor puts Rory's hand on the lock and gives him the decision I was literally screaming in my head "That is not fair!"
Then Rory said "This isn't fair. You're turning me into you."
For me thats great writing. I was so emotionally invovled in the scene I was thinking the same as the character. Sympathising, feeling his pain and the weight of such a decision.


That is a crucial moment in Rory and the Doctor's releationship.
Earlier Rory had been chastisitng the Doctor, saying he didnt think, he just acted and put very one in danger.
This is the Doctor giving Rory a glimpse into the sort of decisions, under all the fun and games, he has had to, and will always have to make.
With great power comes great responsibility. This is where Rory begins to truelly understand the Doctor.

In the end it is old Amy who makes her own decision, she does what Amy always does in the end, she tells Rory what he has to do.
But she does it out of the memory of how much she loved him.
The episode is about the strength of their love.

Future Amy: The look on your face when you carried her... me... her. When you carried her, you used to look at me like that. I'd forgotten how much you loved me. I'd forgotten how much I loved being her. Amy Pond in the TARDIS with Rory Williams.
Rory: I'm sorry, I can't do this.
Future Amy: If you love me, don't let me in. Open that door, I will. I'll come in. I don't want to die. I won't bow out bravely, I'll scream and fight to the end.
Rory: Amy. Amy I love you.
Future Amy: I love you too. Don't let me in. Tell Amy—your Amy—I'm giving her the days. The days with you. Days to come. The days I can't have. Take them please. I'm giving her my days.
Rory: I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.

Hand Bot: Do not be alarmed. This is a kindness.
Future Amy: Interface?
Interface: I am here, Amy Pond.
Future Amy: Show me Earth. Show me home. Did I ever tell you about this boy I met there, who pretended to be in a band....

The episode is one of my favourites. It shows how alien and cold the Doctor can be, and how arrogant. He got them into it. When the only way out is not a pleasant one he does what is necessary.
It shows us Rory and Amy as a releationship, as husband and wife. How much they love one another and why they are together. And why for Amy it was always going to be Rory.



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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:42 pm

and I totally disagree with your analysis.
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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:54 pm

Which parts to you disagree with and how then do you see the meaning of those scenes?

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Kafria on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:02 pm

I've cried again just reading the dialogue here.... and so to my twopenneth

Spoiler:

I think actually this highlights most why I love Rory. He is the juxtaposition to the Doctor. Throughout the arc, although he has respect for the doctor he can see him for who he is. The things Rory has suffered through as a consequences of the doctors actions and Amy's interactions with him is incredible. And if we are truthful, for all the doctor likes Rory he would not be there if it were not for Amy, he would not be a companion. Amy is the central figure around which this relationnship trio is formed. The doctor collects him to centre and complete Amy as he can see that something is missing in her without him. Rory follows and stays as he can see that this adventure is something Amy craves and needs in her life, but also recognises the inherant danger the doctor puts those around him in. Amy knows that Rory is who is ultimatley her partner while loving her travels with the doctor. This is what makes this combination much more powerful for me and Rory one of my favourite characters. He is there to protect Amy, bbut throughout he grows from timid and unsure of his place in Amy's life to someone sure of himself his role and determined to put everything on the line for Amy... not necessarily the doctor. Throuhgout this he remains very human and compassionate... his scenes with the flesh when they first enter the show are also very moving.

To pick up on an earlier point Mrs Figg about thinking that Moffat is trying to throw away RTD years adb 9 and 10. I am not sure it is that so much as RTD had gone so big and the human world had impacted so far that there had to be some knid of reset or there was a limit to where it could go. I don't believe Matts dcotor takes no reference from the past. Eccelstons doctor is alone and full of rage from the aftermath of the time war. Alone Rose and her family reminnd him of how it is to not be alone and he buys into that, becoming closer to his companions than before, that interaction grounds him as he transforms in to tennants doctor, but the loss of Rose reminds him of what loss can open up. He never bonds with Martha in the same way, barriers from the pain. The ultimate end of Donna slaps him in the face with how much damage he does to his companions and so for the rest of tennants run he is trying to stay isolated... has fun with people he meets on adventures, but continues to travel alone. Matts doctor builds on this.. although he allows himself a companion it is more the intriging puzzle that Amy is.. and a sense that he should make what wrong he has dnne her right that makes he let her in, but he determinedly keeps his distance..hence Rory. He has also gone through his grief and reaction that made him into Eccys doctor, there should be a return to a more settled personality, it is natural. It would be stranger for him to remain exactly the same through these experiences and two regenerations. He is also still facing the consequences of his actions from these incarnations. The whole point of Good Man goes to war (following from the pandorica) for me is his realisation that he has become a warrior, something to be feared to the point that people spend generations plotting to ensure his downfall, not the force for good he sees himself as. But alot of that stems from Eccy and Tennant.... talk about cold and chilling, family of blood... waters from Mars... and on a human level the destruction of Harriet - the female prime minister because she tries to protect the human race, no more than he has done many times before. I think Smiths doctor is a natural progression and is still dealing with issues creating in his earlier .

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:46 pm

Spoiler:
Some excellent observations on Rory Kafria. He is my favourite all time male companion- and I agree that he probably shouldnt be called a companion, he is Amy's companion, through hell and high water if thats what it has to be.
But he always remains at heart Rory the nurse, sensitive, loving, caring, withdrawn and timid. What overcomes his shortcomings (but never actually removes them) is his love of Amy and his need to protect her and be with her no matter what.
Its a beautiful scene in a Good Man goes to War when Rory is beside the dying Sontaran nurse and tries to comfort him by saying "You are warrior"
And the Sontaran replies, "No Rory, I'm a nurse."
Rory the nurse, in Roman soldier outfit is transformed into the warrior yet still remains the comforting caring nurse by the bedside. And its not the Doctor who transforms him into this person, its love of Amy, its defending Amy and his child.
The Doctor has never been the important one to Rory.

I think Smiths doctor is a natural progression and is still dealing with issues creating in his earlier .- Kafria

I think Moffats Doctor is very much about consequences. He has been running all his life, but now what he has become as he has running, the consequences of that on a personnal level as well as an external one are catching up with him and he has to stop running and face them.
Moffat has been doing a reset of sorts since the start- the cracks in time took away the Dalek invasion and the Cybermen and all the other alien incidents because it fed on the time disturbed stuff first- this solved the problem of everyone on earth knowing all about aliens after several invasions and humans having a flying aircraft crarrier flying round the world to protect it. Who works better and is scarier if when it is set in our world its the one we know and live in.
And now I think Moffat is going to finish reseting the other problem, the famous legendary Doctor everyone knows and who has become like a God (during Tennants time even in his own head). And the only way to do that is to bring it all to a head and the Doctor to stop running long enough to face what he has done and deal with it and become again Doctor who?

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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Amarië on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:22 pm

Spoiler:
I too think that 11 builds on the previous ones. But I also agree with mrs. Figg about Old Amy. She could have been saved, he could have done something.

There were two Rivers and two Doctors in the Tardis and that was just cute and funny, no self destruct or evaporation there! Old Amy could easily have been let in. And there were two Roses and two Docs in "father's day" (which we just saw). I am left with the nagging feeling that Young Amy could still be "fixed", old Amy was far to broken. Too much job. (Two travelling Amys would probably be far too much, but she didn't have to die. Oh sorry, to never have existed.)

Donna would have kicked his ass for doing what he did.


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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:23 pm

Spoiler:
In Fathers Day there werent two of them in the TARDIS and when one Rose touched the other it caused a rip in the universe because time had already been weakened by the paradox. And the TARDIS buggered off, when the Doctor went back to it it was just a box.
To have two Amy's co-exisitng for any length of time it would be highly risky, maybe at a long shot it might have worked but more likely it would have ripped a massive hole in the universe. At the very least it would have caused a great deal of distress to the Tardis, which would raise a whole other set of moral conundrums.
Although I think you have a point about old Amy being too bitter and broken.

River and the Doctor are both unique cases, they are both time-travellers and both personally attached to the Tardis- the Doctor via his telepathic link and River as she is part daughter of the Tardis.

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Pettytyrant101
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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:07 pm

Rory is just another boring and pointless Mickey, but he is married to Amy so the Doctor cant get rid of him.
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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Kafria on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:38 pm

In many ways Rory is the doctor learning from the mistakes he made where Mickey (and Rose) was concerned.

Spoiler:
And he highlights the danger of the doctor as I have said. The more you think about what he has given up and what he really wants, the more you think through what he and Amy have suffered and yet he can't leave, cause Amy can't.

Having let it sit, I also have a gut response to the Older Amy thing. All too often for me the doctor 'gets out of' the impossible, but sometimes there are choices that have to be made and this is one of those points that illustrates that.(Example - Having rewatched Rivers first ep I had forgotten the 'save' at the end. I actually don't like it as personally it feels like a cop out of what at the time and even more so in hindsight is a real heartwrenching finish)

The unforgivable part of that is throwing the choice to Rory, who retains his memories of waiting for 2000 years for Amy, to choose between rescuing the woman who understands a little more what that is and has finally lost her blind faith in the doctor and may want finally to share the life he always wanted or the girl he waited for and the time to share that life together.

I I love you rory lots!





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Re: Doctor Who [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:07 am

Loved the vids Kafria, but especially the second one.

Spoiler:
Rory for me has had a brilliant development as a character from the boy Amy was reluctant to introduce as her boyfriend to the Last Centurion and fatherhood and I've loved watching it happen.
Its why he is my favourite male character, Mickey didnt develop he was just so hopeless and shallowly written they had to come up with a way to change him, and it happened in an episode just like that.
Rory's had time to grow, develop and to be the human viewpoint on it all.
I will be just as sad to see him go as Amy. Crying or Very sad
A return to only 1 companion is going to take a bit of getting used to for me again.

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Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2678c57O-0LUEROYml2NTFEUTQ

PDF Version (courtesy of Amarie) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1_FdCbmY2-dC1MbXFOVl9UNm8/view?usp=sharing

*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
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