Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Page 5 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:47 pm

As promised, part thirty five.


Glorfindel in Aman

In the last episode Glorfindel perished fighting a demon out of Thangorodrim, but the spirits of the Quendi cannot leave the world or its time as long as the World itself endures, and thus Glorfindel's spirit came to Mandos to await judgement. He, being one of the Etyangoldi (Exiled Noldor), was banned from bodily return to Aman at this point however, as the War of Wrath was yet in the future, if not that relatively far off, and the Noldor in general were still under the Ban.

But Glorfindel, after his purging of any guilt he had incurred in the rebellion, was released from Mandos and Manwe restored his body, an exact copy of his former hroa, the details of which had been stored in the memory of Glorfindel's fea. His judgement had also considered that Glorfindel had been a reluctant Rebel and had had no part in the kinslaying at Swanhaven. Glorfindel was an Elda of high and noble spirit, and importantly, his sacrifice was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar (although he cannot have known this).

He was then permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm, and 'for long years' he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled and in companionship with the Maiar. His spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice, and at some point, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower and friend of Olorin (Gandalf).

Glorfindel remained in Aman 'no doubt at first' by choice, Gondolin was destroyed 'and all his kin had perished' and were still in the Halls of Waiting, but his long sojourn was 'no doubt' also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwe.

in Middle-earth again

Ultimately Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth 'for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond' when the growing evil of Sauron was at last perceived. Tolkien notes that 'it might' have been in Second Age 1200, when Sauron came to Lindon, but 'perhaps more probably' as late as c. 1600, when Barad-dur was completed and the One Ring forged.

My personal opinion: no doubt Glorfindel was a mighty warrior, but it might be that a notable part of his strengthening was also about hope. How inspiring to see such a famed Elf return in such times, bringing wisdom, experience, and both spiritual and physical power! He was not an Istar but I believe his function went beyond his admittedly great martial abilities. He would be a most welcome leader I think.

At the end of a note [a note that possibly came between the texts Glorfindel I and Glorfindel II], JRRT wrote the words Numenorean ship 'presumably indicating how Glorfindel crossed the Great Sea' (Christopher Tolkien). The same note states that, although not mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat in Eriador, Glorfindel played 'a notable and heroic part in the war.'

[just to note it here, again in Glorfindel I the Elf arrived in Middle-earth in the Third Age with Gandalf]

By SA 1700 and 1701 Sauron is defeated and driven out of Eriador.

Next we have a rather large gap of time, to 1975 of the Third Age, although I assume Glorfindel was present at the Last Alliance. In TA 1975 the WK was defeated, and a force out of Rivendell under Glorfindel was involved. Here the WK appeared and rode straight at Earnur (who had arrived at the Grey Havens earlier), but Earnur's horse could not endure the onset... but Glorfindel rode up upon his white horse [not named here, although Asfaloth was also white in any case] and the Witch-king fled. Glorfindel then delivers his famous prophecy.

When next we meet Glorfindel it is Third Age 3018: he is an Elf of Rivendell and sent to meet Frodo and company, as some of his 'kindred' [here I assume he possibly means Elves in general] had sent messages as swiftly as they could. We learn that it was Glorfindel's lot to take the Road, and coming to the Bridge of Mitheithel he left a token there, a pale-green jewel, a beryl, an elf-stone. Three of the Wraiths were upon the bridge, but Laurefindele pursued them Westward. He came upon two others, but they turned southwards.

Glorfindel notes that there are evil things written on the hilt of the blade that stabbed Frodo 'though maybe your eyes cannot see them'. He explains that the wound is beyond his skill to heal, but after searching the wound 'Frodo felt the chill lessen in his side and arm', and the pain grew easier. Frodo saw his friends faces more clearly again and 'a measure of new hope and strength returned.'

The Elf reveals that his horse Asfaloth* will not let any rider fall that he commands to bear. He rides with saddle and stirrups [despite later** description of Elves with respect to riding horses]. He keeps watch, and in the morning pours out a liquor from a silver studded flask of leather, which seemingly brought strength and vigour, and the breakfast of stale bread and dried fruit seemed to satisfy hunger when eaten with this drink.

Glorfindel urges the company on as they continue, and ultimately realizing that the enemy is upon them, urges the Elf horse to ride on! Glorfindel is the 'shining figure of white light' [through Frodo's eyes at this point at the ford], and Gandalf later appears to reveal that he is an Elf-lord of a house of Princes from beyond the furthest seas, one who had dwelt in the Blessed Realm.

'Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength.'

It is Glorfindel who remarks [Council of Elrond, after Bombadil is considered] that two options remain: to destroy the One or cast it into the Sea, and he suggests casting it into the Sea after Elrond points out the difficulty of destroying the One by any craft that the Elves possess. It is also Glorfindel who notes that the Elves are willing to endure the chance of the power of the Three failing, which would seemingly result in many fair things fading and being forgotten, if by destroying the One Sauron may be broken and his dominion taken away forever

Glorfindel is among the Elves that come to Minas Tirith after the fall of Sauron, and for myself, I assume he sailed West with Gandalf and Elrond.

__________

*the Grey-elven name means 'Sunlit foam' -- at least at one point as Tolkien mused about things, according to an entry in Words, Phrases And Passages. This name had previously intrigued Tolkien fans and Tolkien language enthusiasts for some time.

**in 1958 Rhona Beare asked Tolkien why Glorfindel rode with 'bridle and bit' if Elves ride without bit, bridle or saddle. In response (letter 211) Tolkien basically admitted that at the time he had not yet considered the natural ways of Elves with animals, and that Glorfindel's horse should have an ornamental headstall, with plume, with straps studded with jewels and small bells.

Tolkien noted that he would change 'bridle and bit' to headstall.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1142
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:33 pm

wow thanks Elthir that was interesting to read. Razz
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21783
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:17 pm

Excellent Elthir- do you think Manwe actively prevented Glorfindel from making an early return?
And do you think his association with Gandalf was a factor in his being sent back at all?

And lastly as I cant rememebr- did Tolkien ever change the description of Asfaloths saddle?

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2678c57O-0LUEROYml2NTFEUTQ

PDF Version (courtesy of Amarie) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1_FdCbmY2-dC1MbXFOVl9UNm8/view?usp=sharing

*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39317
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 45
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:35 pm

Your point about Manwe is interesting Petty. Tolkien does note: no doubt at first by his [Glorfindel's] own choice, then...

But his long sojourn during the last years of the First Age, and at least far into the Second Age, no doubt was also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwe.

Although maybe 'was also' means that his choice just happened to be in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwe? If that makes sense (I skipped sleeping last night). Although perhaps Manwe's wishes were made known here, which might be the easier interpretation as I read it over a few times. Hmm.

As for Gandalf I could see him being a factor. Glorfindel II notes:

'That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves, and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

Actually I like the version where Glorfindel returns with Gandalf in the Third Age, but this appears to have been replaced.

And if I recall correctly I don't think Tolkien altered the saddle and stirrups, which must have helped Frodo I guess.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1142
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:42 pm

Thanks Elthir.

It would be fortunate if Glorfindel and Manwe just happened to agree he should not go back- I assume if Glor had wanted to go back and Manwe forbade it the word of manwe would get the sway, interesting thought though.

I like the idea of Olorin/Gandalf nipping down to ME every so often gaining knowledge before the whole Gandalf thing- as when he turns up as Gandalf he is 'robed' in the guise if an old man I wonder what he was before when he visited- wsas he fleshed in some fashion (dont even the Valar need to take some sort of form when they visist?) or of he was just a sort of spirit presence.

On the saddle thing I may be being affected by memories from the Bakshi film where Asfaloth has bit and reigns but no saddle.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2678c57O-0LUEROYml2NTFEUTQ

PDF Version (courtesy of Amarie) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1_FdCbmY2-dC1MbXFOVl9UNm8/view?usp=sharing

*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39317
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 45
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:09 am

On the saddle thing I may be being affected by memories from the Bakshi film where Asfaloth has bit and reigns but no saddle.

No saddle and no Glorfindel Wink

Actually do they name the horse in Bakshi's version? I haven't seen this film in a long long time... does Frodo ride alone without a saddle?
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1142
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:36 am

I shall have to double check that Elthir, I cant think off the top of my head if Legolas uses the name when the Black Riders turn up.
But Frodo is riding bareback in Bakshi (I think!) and yes he rides alone and he defies the Riders at the Ford before collapsing too.

(and I still find the Riders chanting across the Ford at him, "come back, come back. To Mordor we shall take you." over and over in that scene to be more creepy than anything Ringwraith related in all of Pj's films).

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2678c57O-0LUEROYml2NTFEUTQ

PDF Version (courtesy of Amarie) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1_FdCbmY2-dC1MbXFOVl9UNm8/view?usp=sharing

*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39317
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 45
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Norc on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:04 am

I have to admit there are some really good stuff about the bakshi version. the ringwraith scene at the ford is too long, but it is creepy as fuck.

_________________
instagram: Art by Trekanttelt
for more of this!

illustration first published in Under Dusken issue 14, 102. vintage, p.18
avatar
Norc
Khaleesi

Posts : 18913
Join date : 2011-12-21
Age : 22
Location : very much north of that fucking wall

http://nimrail.deviantart.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:17 am

Yeah it is too long- I could do without the whole bit where he falls off the horse- on the otherhand I rather like, as a visual device, the way Frodo slips in and out of the wraithworld without having the Ring on so show how he is succumbing to the wound.
Artisically its braver than PJ who didnt dare do such a thing out of fear it would confuse the audience- Bakshi has more trust in his audience to work it out.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2678c57O-0LUEROYml2NTFEUTQ

PDF Version (courtesy of Amarie) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1_FdCbmY2-dC1MbXFOVl9UNm8/view?usp=sharing

*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39317
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 45
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:59 pm

Thanks Petty! And when is Bakshi going to finish the thing?

I mean I realize even this type of animation takes a while, but really Wink
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1142
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by David H on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:09 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Artisically its braver than PJ who didnt dare do such a thing out of fear it would confuse the audience- Bakshi has more trust in his audience to work it out.

That's a very generous way of putting it, Petty. Another way would be to say that he didn't give a #@%& what his audience thought. I suppose that's the height of artistic bravery, isn't it?
avatar
David H
Horsemaster, Fighting Bears in the Pacific Northwest

Posts : 6473
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:00 pm

In this case I dont think it is generous- its quite clear I think what is supposed to be going on- Bakshi shows us the wraith world at weathertop when frodo puts the Ring on, and throughout the chase to the Ford he slips in and out of it.

I am not to keen on the style or the look of the Ring world myself as I am not a fan of a lot of sequences visually, but as a concept I dont mind it and think it serves its purpose in conveying an effect on Frodo which is occuring in the book in an interesting manner, that if implimented better visually could be quite menacing and disconcerting.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2678c57O-0LUEROYml2NTFEUTQ

PDF Version (courtesy of Amarie) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1_FdCbmY2-dC1MbXFOVl9UNm8/view?usp=sharing

*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39317
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 45
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by David H on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:24 pm

I'm not saying that some of his ideas aren't effective, but I think it's generous to say that the confusion (which is all through the movie) is out of respect for his audience's ability to work it out.
avatar
David H
Horsemaster, Fighting Bears in the Pacific Northwest

Posts : 6473
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:33 pm

What I mean is I honestly don't think right after Weathertop that PJ would have taken the risk of having Frodo go into the swirly wraith world again without putting on the Ring, for fear the audience would get confused.
Despite Aragorn explainingg at the trolls Frodo was becoming a wraith.

Whereas Bakshi is willing to take that risk because he thinks it conveys the fact in a visual medium that Frodo is becoming a wraith more effectively than just saying it. He doesnt assume his audience will become confused by it.

Now thats not to say it is not also clumsy, I like the start, the chase and the end but could do without the middle, its pointless, overly weird for no reason and ruins the pace.
But on the use of the wraith world I do think its treating the audience with more intelligence than Pj's method does.

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2678c57O-0LUEROYml2NTFEUTQ

PDF Version (courtesy of Amarie) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1_FdCbmY2-dC1MbXFOVl9UNm8/view?usp=sharing

*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39317
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 45
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by David H on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:37 pm

Wait, is "generous" a dirty word in Scotshobbitspeak?
No offense intended.

Look, I think the visual concept of the swirly world as a haunted place between life and death was a concept that Bakshi deserves some credit for. In the logic of his ME it makes perfect sense for both a person sucked in by a Ring of Power and a person poisoned by a Morgul blade.

Jackson borrows the image but chooses to restrict it just to the Ring because he's trying to build the Ring theme throughout the series.

Bakshi's edit never got far enough along to even worry about things like themes and pacing. He was still stumbling along trying to please himself when he was forced to go public with a crude rough-edit of less than half the movie.

Who knows what editorial choices he'd have made if he had unlimited time and unlimited budget (who knows if we'd ever have seen it at all!)? But I think the respect-for-audience decisions come later in the process than Bakshi ever got.
avatar
David H
Horsemaster, Fighting Bears in the Pacific Northwest

Posts : 6473
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Page 5 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum