Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Norc on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:11 pm

And if you are bored, for 10 points find the Tolkien character 'hidden' in one of the English words above. You have only three months before the 10 points becomes 5 points however.

where does it say my three months started in JULY!

dickhead.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:19 pm

It doesn't say it there... as I say I checked my notes and there it was -- your three months were up.

And I couldn't change it once I saw the notes.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:24 pm

I wonder if the rules keep evolving if Norc will just eventually explode in a shower of swearing. Very Happy

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Norc on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:24 pm

Elthir wrote:It doesn't say it there... as I say I checked my notes and there it was -- your three months were up.

And I couldn't change it once I saw the notes.

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by CC12 35 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:36 pm




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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Norc on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:38 pm

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by CC12 35 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:48 pm


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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:16 am

shouldnt that be 'feeling'- 'we all know that feel' doesnt make sense. scratch Youngsters! Mad

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:16 pm

wow! Norc is getting swearier by the nanosecond. affraid

that was very rude of you young lady. Mad Shrugging

]

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Eldorion on Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:35 pm

This thread is pretty baffling but now that it's quiet I miss it. Sad

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Norc on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:12 pm

I won. that's the end of the tale. end of.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:23 pm

Don't worry, I at least have a few more things to say about Glorfindel or the 'Glorfindel question' of reincarnation. Ah, not that anyone was worried.

Unfortunately these potential future posts might be less about Norc's victory... her winning of sixth place I mean.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:01 pm

cheers hurrah Elthir!

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:10 pm

Thanks Mrs Figg.

And by the way Indis contains Dis (a female Dwarf), if without the diacritical mark.


Thus I move to sixth place.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by CC12 35 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:26 pm

Some people are taking this too seriously Smile

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Norc on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:37 pm

You are so childish... I won..
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Eldorion on Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:21 pm

lol!
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:21 pm

Considering all the excitement concerning the new film adaptation of The Hobbit, I thought I would post today about the thing Tolkien fans are most interested in... linguistics and nomenclature!

Remain calm please.

And now the history of the name of the great hero, but not all of it (well, all of the name but not all of the history of it)!

Part One

Glorfindel originally meant 'Gold-tressed' and was a name made out of elements hailing from the Gnomish language, sometimes called Goldogrin. The Gnomes were Elves, the literary precursors of the Noldor, and while the language they were imagined as speaking was inspired by Welsh, we are decades away from Sindarin from an external perspective. In short, the language was well away from evolving into Sindarin, and the history of Tolkien's languages, including their relationships to each other, was very different at this point in a young Tolkien's life.

That said, Gnomish Glorfindel would hardly change in form as it survived through the external changes of Goldogrin, Noldorin, Sindarin, which simplifies the progression but will do in general. But the name may have gone through subtle changes in meaning or derivation, as Tolkien got older and tinkered with it.

Glorfindel through time [external time]

early stuff

Name List to the Fall of Gondolin (NFG): Glorfindel 'Gold-tress'
Gnomish Lexicon (GL): glôr 'gold' findel 'lock of hair' [findel was struck through however] fith (fidhin) 'a single hair'
Later entries: finn 'lock of hair' and fingle or finnil 'tress'
In another place in GL: Glorfindel 'Gold-locks' was changed to Glorfinn with a variant Glorfingl

Qenya Lexicon (QL):
'laure (much the same as 'kulu') laurina 'golden' laure is the final l of tilkal (p. 100 where it is said to be the 'magic' name of gold, as ilsa of silver). The Gnomish words are glor 'gold' glorin, gloriol 'golden' but GL gives no names of the Golden Tree'

citation from The Book of Lost Tales I, Appendix

Interestingly, accirding to NFG: 'Findel is 'tress' and is the Elfin Findil' and in the Qenya Lexicon [early Quenya] we find: findl 'lock of hair' and firin 'ray of sun'. It might be noted that at this stage, Tolkien sometimes used 'Elfin' in distinction to Gnomish, when referencing languages.

Jumping to a document called Etymologies, dated roughly to the mid to later 1930s (emphasis on roughly). Here we are dealing with the language Noldorin [not yet Sindarin], thus 'N' in the citations, which existed before a major revision in the internal history of the languages was to take place.

Etymologies root GLAW(-R-): Q laure gold (properly the light of the Tree Laurelin) N glaur 'gold' [reduced in polysyllables to glor, lor] Glorfindel, Glaurfindel

Etymologies root SPIN-: *spinde 'tress, braid of hair' Q finde, ON sphinde lock of hair, spindele (braided hair); N findel, finnel, cf Glorfindel.

Jumping ahead to ideas written after The Lord of the Rings was published (thus after 1955): now we are finally dealing with Quenya and Sindarin, and although Tolkien would continue to tinker with his languages, the general history was settled on, as described in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings.

Words, Phrases and Passages in The Lord of the Rings (WPP):

S Glorfindel = glaur + phin-dela DEL-, thick, dense Q phindele mass of long hair OS findel, later to finnel

The names of the Noldor in legend often contain archaic elements notably retention of nd medially and finally.

JRRT, WPP

This is interesting, as Tolkien seemingly explains why we do not have *Glorfinnel (compare to the 'Noldorin' name of Sam's daughter, Glorfinniel). But it appears JRRT was soon enough disatisfied with part of the derivation above. He next writes:

'The proposed DEL- 'thick, dense' will not, however do: it does not provide suitable Quenya or Sindarin forms outside the proposed *spin-dele 'mass of hairs, head of hair'. This is best explained from SPIN- 'fine thread, filament' distinct (though probably ultimately connected) from PHIN- 'skilful, neat, clever (especially applied to hands and fingers).'

JRRT, WPP

Tolkien will also refer here to the name Finwe 'man of manual skill'. So JRRT then imagines S esbin 'thin thread' find, finn 'single hair' (of man or elf)' *spinde poetic or archaic findel *spindila 'head of hair' (fax), preserved mainly in such old names as Glorfindel.'

But this does not seem to have fully landed either (assuming I have the correct external chronology here), as when Tolkien gets to musing about the name Finrod (which appears later in the books, so that's why I assume the following comments followed the earlier comments above)...

The element Fin- in Nold[orin] names is from PHI/PHINI of which the basic sense seems to have been 'skill, dexterity' (...) Its forms especially in names were however associated with products of SPIN-ID, lock, tress of human/Elvish hair. Q. finde, findele 'tress, lock'. So no doubt in Findis. Cf. Laurefin(de), Laurefindele, Sindarized as Glorfindel. But Findel (so, not to finnel) is prob[ably] an [?adj.] spin-dela, 'having beautiful hair', cf. esbin, a tress. Findel = Fairfax.

JRRT, WPP

And in seeming conjunction with this, WPP also reveals a root or base DEL- 'similar to PHIN but passive delya > lelya, fine, beautiful S. deil. spindela, having fine hair. spindidele > S findel. Findel.' And as for the initial element:

Q laurie laure, poetic or archaic gold (poetic: not the metal, but rather 'golden light,' properly or mythologically the light of Laurelin, one of the two trees in Valinor. S. glawar as in Glewellin ...'

LAW-, LAWAR- (...) the application to gold of this stem was poetic and referred to colour primarily (as especially of laburnum) not to material (malta) S glaw- sunshine Q loar, lavar (golden) blossom, laure (e), golden colour of sunshine or golden flowers. S glawar, glaur-

JRRT, WPP

So we arrive at Glorfindel 'Gold (golden light) + hair (fair hair)'.

Is this the final meaning of this name? I can't think of anything later at the moment, and in Last Writings Tolkien mentions that the name was intended to mean 'gold-tressed' back in the old version of the tale. Although JRRT had more to say in The Shibboleth of Feanor, regarding the name Finwe and words for hair.

End part one
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:56 pm

By the way, I never said there would be a part two.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Kafria on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:09 pm

Wasn't that was part two?

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:19 pm

It could be... but I also never said that saying I never said there would be a part two... was necessarily part two.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Eldorion on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:24 pm

Bizarro Elthir is Best Elthir.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Elthir on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:29 pm

Laughing

I am strongly considering a part three however, whether two happens or not.
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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:02 pm

I wonder if Tolkien took inspiration from the Sidhe for the Elves.

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Re: Goldilocks and the Three Trolls

Post by halfwise on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:35 pm

I'm sure that was all very interesting, Elthir, but it still won't help you convince Norc that she didn't win.

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