warrior princess ?

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by RA on Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:59 pm

I mean I'll happily take what little authenic Tolkien dialogue and character development I can get. Shrugging

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:01 pm

Not much happiness to be found in PJ's version RA by that standard! Evil or Very Mad

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by halfwise on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:02 pm

Eldorion wrote:I think Mrs Figg is spot on about Eowyn having a death wish. She wanted to die in battle, both because of her constricting upbringing and because Aragorn rejected her. It's not the most feminist of character motivations, which has gotten Tolkien some flack in more recent years. Shrugging

Actually the love for an ideal is very middle ages courtly love: Tolkien is casting Eowyn in the male role loving the unattainable object. It's almost a step beyond feminism.


As for the great film versus book Eowyn debate, I thought the film did a pretty okay job with her. I didn't like her screaming right as she stabbed the witch king, but most of the rest of it was close enough to make little difference.

I actually didn't mind the soup scene. I think it explored a bit of Eowyn's character Tolkien neglected: her only role for romantic love was the current gender roles, but she was no good at playing the housewife.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:06 pm

I don't mind Eowyn film version except for the completely cocking up of the departure scene- what should be the emotional high point of their releationship- her coming as close as she can to outright declaring love for him is used up far too early in the films leaving that scene with nothing. Its so flat.
And I also think by having her declare her love so publicly and so soon after meeting him- they haven't even fought Helms Deep yet, it makes her seem a bit silly and way to needy too soon.
No wonder Argaorn knocks her back- any bloke would run a mile from that sort of outburst about love so soon after meeting.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by RA on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:13 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Not much happiness to be found in PJ's version RA by that standard! Evil or Very Mad
Well there's the visual department that's mostly amazing. It certainly took a big hit with the Hobbit though when they dropped Tolkien in favor of generic action adventure.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by halfwise on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:24 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
No wonder Argaorn knocks her back- any bloke would run a mile from that sort of outburst about love so soon after meeting.

Depends on how good looking she is - I think a lot of men would try to get some mileage out of it while trying to talk her down at the same time, you know, just out of a sense of duty. Maybe even wait until after they get some mileage before talking her down while quietly berating themselves for taking advantage.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by David H on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:32 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:nope sorry Petty its you who is mistaken. - Mrs Figg

In what way- ......
So in what fashion am I mistaken?

May I wade in? I think this is how you were originally mistaken, Petty:
I strongly dislike how the releationship with Aragorn is handled from her perspective.
Having her blurt out she loves Aragorn before Helms Deep has even been fought just makes her seem like a soppy little girl that gets infatuated with Aragorn like he is a passing pop star. I got he feeling she fell in love with passing heroes every other week!"

I just reviewed the EE Two Towers. In the scene you're talking about her blurting out she loves him is 45 The Glittering Caves. What she actually says is, "You do not command the others to stay. They fight beside you because they would not be parted from you. Because they love you." That's hardly a direct declaration of love. Furthermore there's been half a dozen scenes over almost half a movie since 26 Daughter of Kings when they first crossed swords and she talks about fearing cages, in which they've been shown slowly forming a bond of respect. Now Aragorn has just returned from his supposed death in the warg battle where she was sent away, and now she's being sent away again.

In your edit the time is very much compressed, so there isn't the sense of a relationship gradually building. Maybe that's where you got the "passing pop star" impression. But I personally think it works within the PJ edit.

{{{It doesn't mean I don't still loath the warg attack though. Mad }}}
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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:49 pm

couldnt agree more Dave, your assessment is correct, she does not declare her love to Aragorn at Helms Deep. She declares it before the Paths of the Dead in the film, and even then she is not direct about it, she says something like "can you not guess?" which leaves it up to Aragorn to let her know he understands her, she lets him take the lead. She never outright says "I love you". Which to me says she never truly loved him, but was in love with the idea of him. She thought he was going to his death, but still couldnt overcome her natural diffidence. Maybe it took the trauma of the Witchking and Theodens death to see the difference between real love, the love and grief she felt for her father figure Theoden and the dream love she had for Aragorn. She showed the first real emotion at Theodens death.


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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:54 pm

"You do not command the others to stay. They fight beside you because they would not be parted from you. Because they love you." That's hardly a direct declaration of love. - David

But that is her declaration of love in the book, PJ has moved it to here- that line is clearly taken from her final line at their departure: They only go because they would not be parted from thee- because they love thee.

In PJ's she is even so embarrassed after she says the line they have her say "Im sorry" and hurry away (I am never sure if that was an apology to the viewer for the scripting!).

And its not like Aragorn has done anything heroic or proved himself at the point in PJ's where she declares love- in the book Helms Deep had already happened- in PJ's all he has done is lose a fight to a warg and get dragged off a cliff!

And in the theatrical release I think Aragorn and Eowyn have only spoken twice- once at Edoras and once again on route- in the EE there is the soup scene and stable scene too- but still not that much.
And the conversations at Edoras- the cage one and the stable- is also from the departure conversation in the book, PJ also uses other lines from it earlier so leaving him nothing to put in the supposedly emotional departure scene - which Pj covers in 6 lines of short dialogue because they have nothing left to say to each other:

e- Why are you doing this? The war lies to the east you cannot leave on the eve of battle. You cannot abandon the men.
A- Eowyn.
e- we need you here.
A- Why have you come?
E- Do you not know?
A-It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek. I have wished you joy since first I saw you.

They to give Aragorn lines from the Houses of Healing when he is talking to Eomer about her just to have anything for him to say at all.

So even in PJ's edit I thought it was to soon, I thought that the first time I saw the film, before I had an edit to watch.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:55 pm

no sorry Petty, Daves version is correct. as we said she does not declare herself at Helms Deep, you are mistaken.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:03 am

She says the line. So what does she mean at Helms Deep when she says it in your view?
Why does she get embarrassed and apologies for saying it and hurry away if she has not just effectively told him she loves him?

What is your explanation of that scene?

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:11 am

Its not a declaration, put Legolas or Gandalf in that scene with the same words and its pretty clear its not a declaration of love as such. Its ambiguous. Whereas the eclaration before the Paths its not as ambiguous, she is putting the ball firmly in his court. without actually spelling it out.

At Helms Deep she is telling Aragorn he is loved, by people, she doesnt say I love you, she says people love you, thats fundamentally different.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:15 am

Its the same 'ambiguous' line she uses in the book to tell him she loves him.

It seems clear to me in the film, both from Aragorn's reaction and from her apology and embarrassment, it has the same meaning in the film.

Why else would she apologise and run away? Why else would Aragorn look so troubled by it?
Its quite clear they both get what she is really saying.

If Pj wanted it to be ambiguous why use the line from the book where she lets him know she loves him?
Not like he is shy in making lines up.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by RA on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:17 am

Mrs Figg wrote: Its not a declaration, put Legolas or Gandalf in that scene with the same words...
I don't think I want to. Suspect

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:18 am

Exactly RA- its obviously more than just I want to go with you cause your friends do.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by RA on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:21 am

I'm picturing that dialogue with Legolas and Aragorn.

Or Gandalf and Aragorn...

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:28 am

No sorry Petty its no use insisting. you are wrong, and you should accept it gracefully. Insisting wont make you right. Laughing

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:30 am

Insisting wont make you right. - Mrs Figg

No, but all the evidence being in my favour does! Very Happy

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by halfwise on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:39 am

In the book the phrase "because they love thee" is set in a context that makes it clear it is her veiled declaration of love - it's very beautifully and subtly done. I think the film makers felt they couldn't pull off such a subtle line, so added in the "I'm sorry" to make clear what the intention was. I feel they could have trusted the actors to pull it off, but from the standpoint of writers imagining the scene it was probably a safe move, and I felt it largely conveyed the proper sentiment.

As for the timing, there may be some justification to Petty's position that Aragorn had to prove himself before she could fall for him, but remember in the book she wasn't at Helm's deep; she would only have heard about it. i think given the expanse of time that David pointed out the effect would have been the same. I seem to remember that in the book Eowyn's reaction to him was pretty immediate.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:46 am

Its not her reaction to him Halfwise I have the problem with- its the timing of when she chooses to declare it- it leaves nothing for what should be the last big scene between them- their parting.

Pj has literally used up all the information about the characters in it before he gets there.
Eowyn uses the love line at Helms Deep-she gives him the caged speech at Edoras, he gives the veiled Id rather be in Rivendell line in the stables- there is literally nothing left which is why its only 6 made up lines long.
That scene should be the finale of their relationship- after this its just war and Houses of Healing- where Aragorn's only involvement is in her healing and telling Eomer he did not mean for this to happen.

But Pj has nothing for the big finale scene left other than a rather awkward redeclaration of her love.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by halfwise on Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:12 am

Yeah, I was kinda upset to see so many great lines from RotK shovelled into TT, and was worried what would be left. I do feel RotK missed the mark at several points, perhaps because some of the best lines had been used up.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by David H on Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:41 am

I would have been happier if the apology had been scripted as "I'm sorry, M'lord!" with a backward curtsey. That would have been entirely appropriate as her request to be transferred was clearly insubordinate (which bothers me a bit). It would have been an appropriate way for her to express her resignation to her duty, while also keeping the ambiguity of her feelings open.

The biggest problem I see that PJ was trying to solve is that if he didn't try to build up Eowyn in TT, and particularly the theme of chivalrous love, then a year later when RotC came out, very few casual viewers would remember who this random woman of Rohan suddenly declaring her love halfway through the last movie was. And unlike the book, there's no index to refer to when a character suddenly pops up again.

Instead they chose to spread her character development more evenly through TT and RotC. As I said before it may not be cannon but it think it works.

Besides, I think if they'd given a more powerful parting scene to E and A it probably would have weakened the parting scene with Eowyn and Theodin by comparison, and that relationship is much more critical to the plot.

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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:59 am

I think you make an interesting point David regards changes when you say-

'it probably would have weakened the parting scene with Eowyn and Theodin by comparison, and that relationship is much more critical to the plot.'

If you watch the Aragorn/Eomer departure scene and stop it there- its flat as a pancake- however immediately following it is the scene between a cold Eowyn and Theoden- its beautifully lit in predawn and provides the emotion for her character that the previous scene has been lacking.

Its definite shift away from the book in that regard and this follows through to Theoden's death- which in the book is a moment between Merry and Theoden, a relationship PJ omits and replaces with Eowyn.
And Theoden is as concerned about making sure Eomer is nominated king as he is about Eowyn never seeing him again as he dies- quite right too, leaving that sort of thing open can be trouble!
In the book her relationship to Theoden is critical to her interior turmoil, but not to the plot.

It depends if you approve of this change or not if you like it or not I suppose- I miss the Merry/Theoden stuff myself the promise to hear his herb lore and Merry kitted out in Theodens childhood armour.

I dislike the way film Theoden deals with Merry for the most part, very dismissive.


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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Eldorion on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:00 am

I suspect that they gave Eowyn more character development so that her interactions with Aragorn would make more sense (and I think they did a fairly good job). This is consistent with the greater emphasis on Aragorn's story and relationships throughout the films. The books are much more Hobbit-centric, and if one prefers that then I can understand why they'd miss the Merry/Theoden interactions. I think that the films work pretty well on their own terms though, and if you're basically telling Aragorn's story, then Eowyn needs to have more development.

Either way, Merry certainly got plenty of development in the films. I enjoyed his relationship with Eowyn, even though that was a change from the book (where he didn't know who "Dernhelm" was).
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Re: warrior princess ?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:52 am

Its a matter of time in a way- if PJ had cut the excess there might have been time for the Merry/Theoden releationship.
And for Eowyns story to have properly been told- including the Houses of Healing, Aragorn/Gandlaf/Eomer conversation by her bedside and more of her and Faramir- I dont think we would have missed a releationship with Theoden like the one Pj presents. She would have had a full character arc across two films.

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