The Exodus

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 9:58 am

Mmmm. Im still not convinced the language roots support a Minoan/Crete source for the Hyksos.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 9:59 am

{{{Note to self: Though some of those delicacies might be good brain food... for the brainier types here.... cyclops }}}

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 10:00 am

Rohl seems to think there were more than one type of Hyksos. He has Lesser and Greater Hyksos. I must check it out again.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 10:04 am

That does ring a vague bell.....back to the books! Mad

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 10:07 am

Books! Why did I even start? I think they get in the road of good old homespun theorizing at times...Rolling Eyes

{{{Petty, I think we intellectual types should be more like Ally and Kooky and Eldo --- shallow, simple, unlearned, over-keen on sugary nothings and happy-go-lucky. Very Happy }}}

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 10:09 am

{{{Maybe it's Cookie Carly after all.... sweeeeet....}}}

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 10:10 am

{{{I wonder if she would melt in the mouth? Shocked }}}

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 10:10 am

{{{ Embarassed }}}

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 10:11 am

Anyhow... do you agree with me that the Exodus occurred in the time of Ahmose, Petty? study


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Re: The Exodus

Post by Eldorion on Fri May 17, 2013 10:12 am

I feel like I should dispute that characterization but I kind of don't want to. Suspect
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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 10:13 am

{{{ Shocked}}}

shallow, simple, unlearned, over-keen on sugary nothings and happy-go-lucky- Orwell


I already am those things! (well switch sugar for buckie I am) and its not helped! Evil or Very Mad


do you agree with me that the Exodus occurred in the time of Ahmose- Orwell

Maybe. Very Happy (Id look to know more about where the Hyksos might have come from, need to check this lower Higher thing out, and Id also like to work out how the Ahmose and Aten stuff fit together)

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 10:24 am

Ahmose and Aten are about 100 years apart (therabouts), but Ahmose did have aboat called "Aten" in it's name. The Sun disc, I'm thinking remembering kinda....

Ahmose = Iah (moon) and Moses (born of, son of, child of - something like that). Felt a sudden urge to mention that for some reason. What about Moses? Half an Egyptian name? Has something fallen off? 'Iah' ('Ah') the Egyptian God would be the thing Israelites would get rid of first, what? Also, Yaweh? 'Moon' reference maybe in the name of proto-Jehovah? Mmmm...? cyclops

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 10:29 am

If memory serves the Aten disc was always a feature on the back of the Pharoahs throne going back long before the Hyksos.

There is a good body of work pointing to the proto-Jews having a moon worship association- the horn symbol of the Apis bull is a lunar symbol and widely accepted it was such a symbol that Moses carried before him and that which was over the tabernacle of the ark.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 10:40 am

Yes, Moses was an Egyptian to begin with. A Hyksos (Less or Great) - or was he? Moses is not a Hyksos name, surely. Surely the Israelites would never borrow an Egyptian tale and replace themselves in the story with the 'enslaved' Egyptians of Ahmose's time. i.e, the native Egyptians under Hyksos overlordship? Of course not! Very Happy

And as the Aten became more pronounced - and turned into the One God (kinda) - Amenophis IV changed his name to Akhenaten - dropping the reference to Amen (Amun) and reinventing his Religion, though still using some of the beliefs/tenets already existing in Egyptian Religion.

To be brief: there were Egyptians who promulgated Monotheism - especially Akhenaten - and that's the original inspiration for the Jewish (Habiru?) Religion.

The Exodus heroes were the Egyptians.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 10:44 am

What if there was a religous split- the proto jews left the country in a huff- taking the Moon priests with them- thus leaving the way open for the rise religously in Egypt of the solar disc God Aten?

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 11:11 am

Meant to ask you Orwell- what about the 40 years to get from egypt to Palestine?
Got to be symbolic surely, unless Moses led them in circles.

Perhaps related to their lunar/astronomy beliefs- the Venus cycle is 40 years.
They did ome outof egypt, and astronomy was at its peak there, and if they were Moon priests astronomy would probably play a big part in that.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 11:19 am

Umm... err... At the time of Ahmose do you mean? In Josephus there is a Exodus-like tale in the time of an 'Amenophis'. There was a Priest called Osarsiph (Joseph?) who later was caled Moses. He led a huge number of Lepers and generally Unclean sorts in On (Heliopolis) when Amenophis wanted to get rid of. Sounds a bit like Amenophis/Akhenaten when I simplify the tale like this. Shocked Akhenaten did start his own City of God. He wouldn't want Lepers there, surely! The tale is weird. Have a look at Against Apion on intenrt. See Free Books, Gutenberg Library, Petty. Against Apion 1.28 + 1.31. refers. Peculiar tale. Josephus says its a bogus tale about bogus historical figures. But who knows? Josephus was refuting Manetho's version.

A side point: Aaron. Hard to find an Egyptian equivilent. What about Iah-On. Moon God of Heliopolis? Something like that? I'm clutching at straws.

Interesting that I'm not the only one to wonder if Osarsiph could be Joseph? And then that Osarsiph became Moses. scratch

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 11:23 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Meant to ask you Orwell- what about the 40 years to get from egypt to Palestine?
Got to be symbolic surely, unless Moses led them in circles.

Reckon so. A crock of crap by the sounds in practical terms.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Perhaps related to their lunar/astronomy beliefs- the Venus cycle is 40 years.
They did ome outof egypt, and astronomy was at its peak there, and if they were Moon priests astronomy would probably play a big part in that.

It's all murky. But the Moon does seem to have been important to Ahmoses - and the Israelites were keen on Ya (Iah?) themselves. And the Apis Bull seems hinted at in the Israelite Tale, though pooh-poohed regards the Golden Calf bizzo. A slight on Egyptian belief in the Apis Bull (and it's hint of the Lunar stuff you mentioned associated with a Bull's Horns). Shrugging


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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 11:24 am

Thanks Orwell- back in a bit, Ill have a read of those sources.

Ive heard the Osarisph/Joseph thing before but will need to research it again to refresh the details.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 11:25 am

I read the passage and immediately wondered if Osarsiph could be Joseph. I think maybe because of the seph-siph endings of the names and the slightly Exodus-like bent. It's a weird but interesting tale.


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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 11:26 am

On the aphis bull incident- I always took that to represent a religous debate/fight among the proto-jews over promince of gods.
We know from later very early Jewish setlments that they had a male and female deity originally. Worth beaing in mind- as whoever left egpt took withthem at least two deities, a god and consort. It was not true monotheism yet.
Moses seems to have elevated a single God to a position of dominance, but not yet unqueness.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 11:33 am

Ahmoses you mean?

This whole Exodus 40 years in the desert stuff is dodgy. Habiru tribes may have left Egypt at the time of the Hyksos Expulsion (by Ahmose) fleeing to their city of Sharuhen. Maybe Asiatics like the Habiru/Apiru (Jews?) were forced out too, returning to a Nomadic (sheepherder?) lifestyle for awhile (years?) before invading places like Jericho. (I suspect Jericho fell to an earthquake which Joshua exploited - good Jewish name that - Joshua. Much more fitting than Aaron or Moses methinks).


Old Judaism had a Male and Female God to begin with I reckon.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Fri May 17, 2013 11:54 am

Found this on internet re: date of destruction of Jericho.

It is clear that the question is one of chronology. When was City IV Jericho destroyed? The scholarly consensus says ca. 1550 B.C., Wood says ca. 1400 B.C. What source can we turn to to settle this dispute?

"In fact, radiocarbon is such a source. In the early 1990's, when Wood first published his claims, there was only one radiocarbon measurement available for City IV. It was from a piece of charcoal dated by the British Museum to 1410 plus or minus 40 years B.C. Unfortunately, this date was later retracted by the British Museum, along with dates of several hundred other samples. The British Museum found that their radiocarbon measurement apparatus had gone out of calibration for a period of time, and thus had yielded incorrect dates during that period. The corrected date for the charcoal sample from City IV turned out to be consistent with Kenyon's ca. 1550 B.C. date for the City IV destruction."


This is around the date for Ahmose = 1550BCE.

Earthquake destroys Jericho, the walls came tumbling down. Joshua's trumpets blasting? Joshua marches in? Marching in from Egypt from Avaris? After Fourty Years or Fourty Days, or thereabouts, allowing for the obvious symbolism with the Number 40 in the Book of Exodus and Book of Joshua. Were other destruction levels in Israel circa 1550? Was this the date of Thera? The date of the Exodus? The collapse of many of the Cities in the (later) Israel? (I'm factoring in the possibility of the Ten Plagues to Ahmoses' time here, c.1550 --- moving it down from 1628. Or could Jericho's collapse be a later earthquake not caused by Thera?)

I wonder if there is any argument out there in favour of c.1550 for Thera? ... Back soon....




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