The Exodus

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:30 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:It makes sense that the egyptianised Asiatics would have switched allegiance to the Hyksos. After all maybe they were smater than us the Hyksos, look what happened when we invaded Iraq and thought it a good idea to take out all the infrastructure and civil service along with the dictator.
From the way the Hyksos outwardly adopted things Egyptian I would guess they largely kept the beurocracy as it was and just placed key people in it.

From what I remember, the Hyksos adopted some Egqyptian ways, but also Minoan (loosely speaking) to judge from the frescoes that were found in Avaris. They were very un-Eqyptian in other ways. A few times while discussing this, the word "Crusader" in regard to the Hyksos has popped into my head for some reason. Not sure why. They were a hated invader to the Egyptians, with obscure 'foreign' ways, I guess, but who took on some of the Egyptian trappings. Maybe that's it.

Are their names Canaanite names of the Levant coasts, do you think? If Myceanaens, would they have used Canaanite names as their Empire included at least some of Canaan as well as Lower Egypt? The "obscure race" still intrigues me. Maybe they adopted 'Canaanite' trappings as well, if they were actually ancient Greeks? scratch (I assume here, for instance, names like 'Yakub' are Canaanite names).

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:33 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well the OT was almost certainly written during the second captivity in Babylon- the most cosmopolitian city ever at the time- they certainly had no shortage of source material as every known religion had a place there.

True. There was a lot of 'Egyptian' focused material in the early parts of their Myth. I suspect the Israelites brought a body of previously collected material to Babylon, and the collecting continued once they got there. Very Happy

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:35 am

The more I think about it, Avaris may have been an early Babylon. A hub of civilization once the Hyksos cemented their rule and became less warrior-like and more Minoan-like.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 12:36 am

Did a bit of (quick) digging and as far as I can tell Yakub is a modern version of Yaqub, which in turn has its root in the Arab form of Ya'aqov which is Jacob!

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 12:38 am

I suspect the Israelites brought a body of previously collected material to Babylon, and the collecting continued once they got there- Orwell

Yes, I reckon they took a lot of lold stroies and ideas out of EGpt which transmuted over tiem into theirown religon and then when they were captive and taken back to Babylonthe found all this stuff which resonated as it really all had similar sources.
But it must have seemed like they had stumbled onto a golden treasure hoard of lost knowledge.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:41 am

I've got it! (Maybe???)

Thera knocks the Stuffing out of the Minoan Civilization and it's trading network countries (a heap of City States around the Great Green Sea). The warlike tribal (barbarian) Myceanaens are less affected, invade down along the Levant coast and into the prime-for-the-plucking Avaris where they install a Dynasty which in time, as stated above, restores a trading network around the Great Green Sea. Avaris is in a special position and recovers quicker than other Cities and so becomes the capital of a new trading empire, though it's Rules is hated by the native Egyptian Dynasts. Avaris certainly became a huge city in the Hyksos period.

We've solved it all, Petty! cheers


Last edited by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:44 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:42 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Did a bit of (quick) digging and as far as I can tell Yakub is a modern version of Yaqub, which in turn has its root in the Arab form of Ya'aqov which is Jacob!

Zackly my thinking! Is it a Canaanite name?

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 12:43 am

Very Happy cheers pats on the back and buckies all round. Taking of which I believe it yours.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:45 am

I'd swear it was your turn -- again... Very Happy

Do you know if Yakub is Canaanite or not?

Btw just because te Israelites call "Yakub" their ancestor (if it's him) doesn't make the ancestral association true, methinks. Surprised

It would be curious if they've turned "Yakub" the Mighty Pharoah (and Oppressor, depending on if you're an Native Egyptian or not) into the lovely-nice "Israel" himself, "Father of our People". I mean, it would be like turning Ahmose, the Egyptian Liberator, into Moses, the Israelite Liberator, wouldn't it! Shocked


Last edited by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:52 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 12:49 am

Is it a Canaanite name?- Orwell

Yakub is Arabic. But that it seems is an Arabic translation of the Hebrew. But the name must have predated the Hebrew language. scratch

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 12:51 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Is it a Canaanite name?- Orwell

Yakub is Arabic. But that it seems is an Arabic translation of the Hebrew. But the name must have predated the Hebrew language. scratch

Interesting -- and getting more interesting as the discussion proceeds... Very Happy

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 12:53 am

Jacob means- "holder of the heel" or "supplanter".

Mmm would you call southern Egypt a heel?

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 1:04 am

The word heel in arabic is עָקֵב
The root meaning of which is -

to supplant, circumvent, take by the heel, follow at the heel, assail insidiously, overreach a) (Qal) to supplant, overreach, attack at the heel
b) (Piel) to hold back

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 1:06 am

Mm so potentially we have a Jacob who got his name for being known as someone who supplanted someone, assailed insidously but overeached himself. Suspect

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:08 am

If Manetho (I think it was him) gave us the name, then it might have been given as a derogatory term. Manetho saw the Hyksos as Egyptian Oppressors, so the names used may have been Egyptian nicknames (of sorts). Did Jakob come to Avaris and later supplant his Hyksos predecessor - or even a local Egyptian Dynast - then what you say sounds tantalising.

I had a quick Wikipeek. It is not certain what language Yakub comes down from though.

I like your thinking on this, mind. Very Happy I wonder what the other Hyksos names might mean? As another thought, the Egyptians may not even have used the Hyksos proper names. They may have called them "King" or "Pharoah" or something, especially if they were under their thumbs? So the names Manetho (?) uses might be just nicknames after all, same as with the Israelite (Jakobite? Very Happy ) writers --- which is ironic, as the Israelies are even today viewed by some as 'supplanters'. Very Happy

What does "Israel" mean, I wonder? I should know.


Last edited by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:09 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Mm so potentially we have a Jacob who got his name for being known as someone who supplanted someone, assailed insidously but overeached himself. Suspect

Over reached? Sorry. Please explain. Shrugging

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 1:14 am

Well depends which side you place Jacob on really, if he was on the Hyksos side it might be viewed they lost in the end to the egyptains becuase they tried to take to much to fast and over reached themselves in ambition.

Conversely if Jacob was on the Egpyptian side of the border the name might refer to the 'hold back' meaning- and he might have been credited with halting the Hyksos from making any further inroads north.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:14 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The word heel in arabic is עָקֵב
The root meaning of which is -

to supplant, circumvent, take by the heel, follow at the heel, assail insidiously, overreach a) (Qal) to supplant, overreach, attack at the heel
b) (Piel) to hold back

Oh, I see.

Maybe the Egyptians knew Yakub to be a nasty piece of work. Did he assassinate his predecessor? Did he fawn on a local Egyptian Dynast, get into his confidences, then turn on him like a rat? Shocked And this is the Israelite hero! In fact, 'Israel' himself! Shocked


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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:16 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well depends which side you place Jacob on really, if he was on the Hyksos side it might be viewed they lost in the end to the egyptains becuase they tried to take to much to fast and over reached themselves in ambition.

Conversely if Jacob was on the Egpyptian side of the border the name might refer to the 'hold back' meaning- and he might have been credited with halting the Hyksos from making any further inroads north.

But he was a Hyksos himself. Maybe you mean he held back the Egyptians? scratch And north of where btw? Shrugging

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 1:18 am

But he was a Hyksos himself.- Orwell

Yes, but thats my point- are you sure he was?

And north of where btw?

Is my memory gone buckied again? Did the egyptains not hold the north and the Hyksos the south?

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:22 am

Look what I found in that most trustworthy of resources, Wikipedia.

"As to a Hyksos “conquest,” some archaeologists depict the Hyksos as “northern hordes . . . sweeping through Palestine and Egypt in swift chariots.” Yet, others refer to a ‘creeping conquest,’ that is, a gradual infiltration of migrating nomads or seminomads who either slowly took over control of the country piecemeal or by a swift coup d’etat put themselves at the head of the existing government." [My italics].

Jacob as 'supplanter'? Or a 'tribe' by name "Jacob'(later 'Israel'), as 'supplanter'? Plot thickens, Petty.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:30 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:But he was a Hyksos himself.- Orwell

Yes, but thats my point- are you sure he was?

And north of where btw?

Is my memory gone buckied again? Did the egyptains not hold the north and the Hyksos the south?

Hyksos = Lower Egypt (North)

Egyptians = Upper Egypt (South).

Though the Hyksos held sway over the South and held Memphis, their Capital (apparently). So maybe Lower and Middle Egypt might be a better way of saying it. The Egyptian Dynasts were in Thebes and sub-Dynasts under the Hyksos, I guess. I believe the Thebans still ruled that part of Egypt, this being the XVIIth Dynasty, who became the XVIIIth Dynasty under Ahmose I. The XVIIth and XVIIIth are really the one and same Dynasty, but Ahmose came to Rule both Upper and Lower Egypt whereas the XVIIth Dynasts ruled only Upper Egypt, and this under Hyksos Overlordship). (I think).

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 1:31 am

Plot thickens, Petty.



Lower Egypt (North)



That lower upper south/north thing always throws my bukckied head- lower should be south!! Bloody Egyptians. Mad

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:32 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:But he was a Hyksos himself.- Orwell

Yes, but thats my point- are you sure he was?

I'm as sure as I can be. He was at least listed as a Hyksos King somewhere.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 1:43 am

I dont see it on the Kings List for the period.


Skhaenre Shalik
Maibre Sheshy
Meruserenre Yacobher
Seweserenre
Khayan
Aauserre
Nebkhepeshre
Aasehre

And known vassals-

Saket, Wadjed, Qar, Niraka, Nubuserre, Khauserre, AAhetepre, Yakboam, Yoam, Am, Yakbaa, Nubankhre, Seneferankhre Apopi, Anathher, Semqen, Usernath, Nebmaatre


It seems fairly even on semitic and egyptian names- I wonder what made the choice of which to go for? Notably more of the vassals have Egyptian names than the rulers which might be telling.

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