The Exodus

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 1:53 am

Mmm been thinking (bad sign!) and musing (dangerous sign)- if many of the names are semitic, especially the ruling class- then that woud indicate a language root somewhere about what would be todays Palestine for th Hyksos.
Which could mean the Palestnians headed south, took north egypt, eventually got defeated, and had to sue for their release to return to their promised land of Palestine.
If so it could be the biggest historical irony ever.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 1:58 am

Wikipedia:
The known rulers for the Hyksos 15th dynasty are:
Sakir-Har Named as an early Hyksos king on a door jamb found at Avaris.
Regnal order uncertain.
Khyan
c. 1620 BC
Apophis
c. 1580 BC to 1540 BC
Khamudi
c. 1540 BC to 1530 BC?

Acccording to Manetho:
Saites 19 Years
Bnon 40 Years
Archles 30 Years
Aphophis 14 Years

Manetho (via Josephus):
Salatis (Memphis)
Beon
Apachnas
Jonias
Assis


Wikipedia (again):
"Meruserre Yaqub-Har (Other spellings: Yakubher), also known as Yak-Baal[1] was a pharaoh of Egypt during the 17th or 16th century BCE. As an Asiatic ruler during Egypt's fragmented Second Intermediate Period, Yaqub-Har time is difficult to locate chronologically.
While he is occasionally described as a member of the Hyksos based 15th dynasty, the Danish specialist Kim Ryholt has suggested that Yaqub-Har was actually one of the last kings of the 14th Dynasty. This is because while the early Hyksos kings are known to have used the title heka-khawaset in their reigns such as Sakir-Har or Khyan--at least early in the latter king's reign before he chose the prenomen Seuserenre. Later Hyksos kings such as Apophis simply adopted a prenomen—like the 14th dynasty kings. Yaqub-Har himself always used a prenomen or royal name, Meruserre, in his reign which strongly suggests that he was rather a member of the Asiatic 14th dynasty which preceded the Hyksos. Meruserre means 'strong is the love of Re.' The 14th Dynasty of Egypt was an Asiatic dynastic which ruled in the Delta region—like the Hyksos. Ryholt has suggested that the name Yaqub-Har had a West Semitic origin. Unlike the extremely well attested 14th dynasty king Sheshi who is attested by a massive 396 seals, Yaqub-Har is only attested by a relatively modest 26 seals."


Mmm... where did I get my 6 Rulers from? I need to get back to my books. Very Happy


As to our Yakub-Har. Maybe he was one of the earlier Dynasts - and possibly an (earlier?) Asiatic after all. Or was he a local leader of an Egyptianized Asiatic tribal group who became a 'supplanter" of some unknown Dynast?

The Bible Moses allegedly came many many years later.

Where does this leave us, I wonder? Shrugging

We still have a candidate for "Jacob" though. Probably a better one, because at least we don't have to make him a Mycenaen. He can still be an Asiatic with a name like that. Laughing


The four (or 5?) Hyksos names though --- are they potentially Mycenaen? (I've grown quickly fond of my Mycenaen hunch, you see).

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 2:03 am

What dynasty was Akenaten?

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 2:09 am

XVIIIth. There is quite a span of time between him and Ahmose. About 160 years separate them. (I don't think Akhenaten is the Biblical Moses btw. I do think that some of his Religion influenced the Bible though - more Bower Birdism).

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 2:16 am

How many generations between Jacob and Moses I wonder?- theres what about 6-8max between our Jacob candidate and the time of Akenaten.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 2:27 am

Most of the genealogies for Moses I look up put him in the late new kingdom 19th Dynasty- in time for Ramesses, but I can only find four generations between Jacob and Moses time- which by my reckoning would in fact put Moses in the Early New Kingdom period- either alongside the successful Ahmose, or even a little later in the time of Akenaten- either would seem to be in the time frame.
But from the given geneaology there just arent enough generations to get to the 19th Dynasty.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:03 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:How many generations between Jacob and Moses I wonder?- theres what about 6-8max between our Jacob candidate and the time of Akenaten.

Huh.. um... err...???? I'm thinking Jacob has been cast back in time if he's not actually a Hyksos... or is he one after all? scratch

8 generations could mean 8 x 20 years... Is that your hint? I think your guess is about right as far as the XVIIIth Dynasty Kings go. I think it's 8 Kings (or 7 and a Queen) between in fact. Nod

Which brings me to something else I was just thinkng about. If there were only 4 properly recorded Hyksos Kings after all, then the usual 110 years guestimate for their Dynasty could eaasily be reduced to 80 years (4 x 20 years as averaged-out "Generations"?) This brings me back to 1628BCE for Thera (Plagues) and 1550BCE for the Exodus (as in Ahmose and not so much "Moses"). The times at least fit nicely (for me at least).

As to Jacob (and Joseph?) - I'm thinking now maybe he preceded the Hyksos Kings. By how long, I don't know. He sounds Egyptianized and was an Asiatic (apparently). maybe King is not the word. A Local Ruler promoted to King by Manetho maybe, and put in a Dynasty (XIVth)? We need to see if there is a list for XIVth Dynasty Kings in that case, methinks.

NB Are you going to suggest Akhenaten might be the Biblical Moses and he was Exodus-sed out of Egypt? I've heard that Theory and don't give it much credit. Though my mind is still open (a little) on the subject.


Last edited by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 3:07 am

Are you going to suggest Akhenaten might be the Biblical Moses- Orwell

No, I dont thnk it entirely adds up- but ideas tend to ferment at the same sort of time- like steam engine time, suddenly theres enough information for different people to make the same leaps.
Its always struck me as suspicous that two monotheisms spring up out of nowhere at approx the same time, in approx the same place- I dont like those sort of coincidences.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 3:09 am

If Moses is actualy Ahmoses then Jacob going on bilbical records cant be much more than 80 years earlier.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:11 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Most of the genealogies for Moses I look up put him in the late new kingdom 19th Dynasty- in time for Ramesses, but I can only find four generations between Jacob and Moses time- which by my reckoning would in fact put Moses in the Early New Kingdom period- either alongside the successful Ahmose, or even a little later in the time of Akenaten- either would seem to be in the time frame.
But from the given geneaology there just arent enough generations to get to the 19th Dynasty.

I know a lot of people think Ramesses was the Pharoah of the Oppression. Can't see it myself. (Mind open though). The early dates from the Bible are often dubious (to me). Ramesses seems far too late for me. Also, where's the Exodus recorded? Also, I think the Israelite scribes would have named him. He was famous aftera all. Whereas my 'Moses"is named. He's "Ahmose". His race and backstory have just been tampered with. Also, the Plagues relate better (for me) to the time around the Hyksos invasion, when Egypt was over run, perhaps in the time of an ephemeral Pharoah called Dedumose (Tutimaois)(circa 1628?), who the invaders may never have known - especially if he was killed in the Theran tribulation - drowned? - or supplanted by his own surviving subjects prior to the Hyksos turning up. Shrugging

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:16 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:If Moses is actualy Ahmoses then Jacob going on bilbical records cant be much more than 80 years earlier.

That would fit in nicely with my hypothesis then. Maybe Jacob was a Hyksos after all. Salatis even? He supplanted Dedumose' Dynasty. Dedumose was the last King of the XIIIth Dynasty, I think. The Hyksos thing is all very vague. And no one seems sure if Yakob was a Hyksos King or not. But if he was, then you and I are on to something, Petty. Nod

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:23 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its always struck me as suspicous that two monotheisms spring up out of nowhere at approx the same time, in approx the same place- I dont like those sort of coincidences.

I agree. Maybe the Israelite tales were coloured by this. I suspect much of Monothesism was borrowed (Bower Birded) from Egypt and Akhenaten. Indeed, I think there may have been a 'moving' toward Monotheism before Akhenaten. I don't think he invented it, he just made it the State Religion. Think of the Aten. That was in vogue back in Ahmose' days (and is a part of the religious thought of other XVIIIth Dynasty Kings too in between). Which might itself link further to 'Monotheism" being in the air back then. Ahmose = Moses = the beginning of the Monotheism-as-potential-State Religion idea!

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:34 am

I hope you're off making further researching and not in bed asleep, Petty. Suspect We're on the cusp of a break thru - I feel it in my waters. This is important! Mad


Last edited by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 3:34 am

I was thinking along similar lines.
What you need is some reason for the people to begin elevating one of the gods to the exclusion of others- the problem there is the vested political intrest of the various 'churches'.
But if Ahmose had defeated the Hyksos with the backing of the Aten God and priesthood that might have given them the popular platform, and close patronage they needed to start outmanouvering their rivals- culminating a couple of generations later in Akenaten.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 3:35 am

I hope you're off researching further and not in bed asleep, Petty.- Orwell

Im not out of buckie yet! drunken

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:40 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I was thinking along similar lines.
What you need is some reason for the people to begin elevating one of the gods to the exclusion of others- the problem there is the vested political intrest of the various 'churches'.
But if Ahmose had defeated the Hyksos with the backing of the Aten God and priesthood that might have given them the popular platform, and close patronage they needed to start outmanouvering their rivals- culminating a couple of generations later in Akenaten.
My italics. Very Happy

... a couple of generations is close enough to 8 generations for me. Very Happy But these things do take a while to become "Official". Akhenaten's Father, Amenophis III was quite into the Aten too. Akhnenaten's revolution may have been instigated (to some degree) by his own Father --- and forefathers, if we think back to Ahmose. What if they attribued the Egyptian victory of Ahmose to the Aten? We can't know, but it's feasible. Aten then would have set his Chosen People free - the Egyptians that is. Very Happy

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 3:43 am

Exactly. Same mood of the times as effected what would go on to be the Jews, this was a version of it that stayed in Egypt and failed after a generation for some reason.

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:46 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I hope you're off researching further and not in bed asleep, Petty.- Orwell

Im not out of buckie yet! drunken

And to think, some people actually disapprove of buckie! Rolling Eyes Where do they think logical inspiration comes from? Very Happy

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 3:54 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Exactly. Same mood of the times as effected what would go on to be the Jews, this was a version of it that stayed in Egypt and failed after a generation for some reason.

TheJews just hung in with the idea - that's why they attribute Ahmose as their Great Prophet. I mean, Moses was born and bred in Egypt - that part of the Bible tale is true. Nod

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 4:06 am

Where do they think logical inspiration comes from?- Orwell

So true!
Sadly however I am, as Mrs Figgs would no doubt point out, scraping the bottom of the barrel, or was that something she wouldnt scrape off her shoe? scratch drunken What was I saying? :drunken:Ah yes, low on buckie, very low, Sad so low I need aladder just to get to quite low.
And its 4am, which probably isnt a good thing. Unless you have buckie, which I now dont. Sad
Therefore, I am going to stagger this way- because Dave is off visiting the elves again so I can kip in his haystack, or pig sty, or cow biar, or cranberry patch, whichever looms up at me first on my way downward to the ground.... drunken...right....which way was Daves farm from here again? scratch drunken

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 4:17 am

Wikipedia:
As many as 76 kings are known from various king lists (from Manetho; the Turin Royal Canon gives 32), but only a few are attested in contemporary sources, so some may not have been actual rulers (e.g. some may be pseudonyms of other rulers). Most likely, many of these ruled concurrently over different parts of the Delta.

Known rulers, in the History of Egypt, for this Dynasty include:
Nehesy (or Nehesi) left his name on two monuments at Avaris. His name means "Nubian" in Egyptian[citation needed].
Sekheperenre
Merdjefare. Attested by a single stela from Saft al-Hinna, in the Delta[1]

Several other rulers may be dated to the 14th dynasty [2] or the 15th dynasty:[3]
Sekhaenre Yakbim
Ya'ammu
Qareh
'Ammu
Maaibre Sheshi
Aperanat
Samuqenu
Meruserre Yaqub-Har


Your Asiatic Dynasty Petty! The XIVth?

Then came the Hyksos Kings (XVV?)

Turin King List:
Salitis
Beon
Sakir-Har
Khyan
Apepi
Khamudi
(That's where I got my 6 Hyksos Kings. Whew!)

The Sakir-Har seems striking. Wasn't there a Yaqub-Har (or similar") who might also be a Hyksos King? But above he's XIVth Dynasty not XVth (Hyksos). Should Meruserre Yaqub-Har be seen as the first (loosely speaking) Hyksos King? Or even Salatis himself? He who lead his people peacefully (yeah, right!) into an Egypt devastated by the Theran Eruption in circa 1628 which crippled Dedumose, last King of the XVIIIth Dynasty?

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2013 4:22 am

This isnt Daves farm! drunken Ive gone round in a bloody circle!! Evil or Very Mad

Hey Orwell, yeah thats where I reckon we put Jacob to Joseph. With the arrival of Hyksos marking the Pharoahs he didnt know.

Where you putting Moses, hold on, drunken jst going over here,behind this bush....ahhhhhhhhhhh drunken that better- right, wich fecking way is Daves? drunken

Show me the way to go home,
Im buckied and I want to go crash oot... drunken

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 4:28 am

Um.. my Missus is telling me to go shopping. This might be a good time to start listening! Shocked

Catch you later, Petty (much later by the sounds of things Rolling Eyes ).

Cheerio for now. Very Happy

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Eldorion on Sat May 11, 2013 5:00 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Mm so potentially we have a Jacob who got his name for being known as someone who supplanted someone, assailed insidously but overeached himself. Suspect

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Re: The Exodus

Post by Orwell on Sat May 11, 2013 6:30 am

{{{Petty, Joseph was your Administrative type --- so why not his Father! Shocked }}}

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