FREEDOM!!!! [2]

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FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 3:26 pm

Continued from: http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t236p990-freedom

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Name me one area where an entire community has been replaced by another one. You can't. It hasn't happened.- Ally

No I cant- as I said we dont have the same problem here.
But whenever they interview genral English joe public in the sort of areas with high immigrant levels it is typical of how they appraise the situation.
I dont live there so can only take locals words for it. Certainly I have seen pictures from someplaces that would seem to indicate this has happened.

WhiteChapel High Street-




And if it is so then it would be misguided to simply call it racist as that does nothing to address the underlying tensions that have let it get t o this point in England.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Ally on Fri May 17, 2013 3:32 pm

London is the city that immigration made from the dawn of of Britain's Empire. Can't use it an an example I'm afraid.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Eldorion on Fri May 17, 2013 3:56 pm

Thanks for reading it, Petty. I really appreciate your feedback. Smile

Pettytyrant101 wrote:1. Wales is no longer technically a country. The Uk actually consists of three countries- Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and the Principality of Wales. It is due to a historical anomaly property of the Royal Estate, and the Heir to Throne also holds the title Prince of Wales.
But in practical terms as far as devolved government and Westminister is concerned, and as far as its inhabitants are concerned, it is treated just like a country.

I've heard some people say the similar stuff about Northern Ireland not really being a country (province seems a somewhat popular term for them), but since I had a finite amount of space which I ended up going over anyway I wanted to try to keep things relatively simple. All of the home countries seem to have different situations with how much autonomy they have. I didn't even touch on England and Wales sharing a legal system or the British-Irish Council mostly for space reasons.

2. Labour are the long standing proponents of devolution not the SNP. And the late Donald Dewar, Labour Minister was instrumental in founding the Scottish Parliament, creating the legislation and getting it through Westminister and was its First Minister when it sat. His statue stands outsde the Parliament. The SNP originally opposed devolution and refused to take part in the drafting legislation. They have always campaigned on an Independence platform.

I noticed that Dewar was Labour but I didn't do too much research into the pre-1999 campaigns. That's totally my bad. I'd like to say it only happened because I was rushing, but I dunno. :/

Scottish parliament elections are a List PR system, not first past the post. The only time Scots vote in a First Past the Post system is at the General Election for electing a UK government.
All votes wihin Scotland at all levels are forms of PR.

I was under the impression that the Scottish Parliament used a mixed system, which I tried to allude to by using the term mostly in the paper. Based on my admittedly brief poking around on the SP website it looks like they have both constituencies and larger regions and they seemed to use slightly different systems for each type. The smaller constituencies are single-member districts though unless I'm really misunderstanding something...?

Not trying to be difficult or anything, just trying to make sense of this since the vast majority of my political science education has been completely US-focused.


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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 3:58 pm

I can if those who were living there n longer recognise their neighberhood a generation later.
That will always cause disatisfaction and allow fertile ground for BNP/ UKIP style claims of beig 'swamped' and 'overrun', they can quickly add to that how they use our health service, and put stress on resources, and how they get given housing when locals are left waiting years on housing lists.

Ignoring the genuine underlying concerns beneath all the nonsense though is no better than fuelling it.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by CC12 35 on Fri May 17, 2013 4:03 pm

there have been immigrants living in London for hundreds of years. A small minority of hateful people should not be listened to

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Eldorion on Fri May 17, 2013 4:03 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I can if those who were living there n longer recognise their neighberhood a generation later.

People in the US made that exact claim about neighborhoods being "overrun" by black people moving in from other places in the same city. I don't see the need to cater to bigots though. It seems like a lot of the anti-immigration fervor in many countries is just thinly veiled (or not) racism.
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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by CC12 35 on Fri May 17, 2013 4:15 pm

no didn't u read mrs figg's post it's not rascism

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 4:15 pm

I tend to agree Eldo- and I havent seen it first hand as its not a problem here.
But I have been observing this growing in England for at leat the last decade. And it has gained a wide and wider acceptance and audience resulting in the recent local election results. And the complaints from those vote UKIP stem along simialr lines- a sense of a loss of cultural identity and humogeny.
And that I think stems from some genuine root problems not just racism, that are the fualt of a lax immigration policy under Labour in that they hadnt proparly thought out how to intergrate such large increases in numbers in a short spac eof time into communities- but just dumped them all in one place in a community, often in poor quality housing.


ElLdo wiki's section on the Scttottish Parliament covers the voting sytem quite well- for the MSP's a mix of First Past the Post and a list PR system. European elections are PR, local council elections list PR.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Eldorion on Fri May 17, 2013 4:23 pm

I can kinda see where you're coming from but it takes time for immigrants to fully integrate into a new society. Speaking anecdotally here, my mom's family and a lot of family friends all consider themselves to be Italian rather than American even in cases where they've been here for two or three generations. Each successive generation becomes more part of the new country though, till you get to people like me who don't feel much if any connection to the "mother country". But I think it's totally understandable why people still feel a connection to their former homes and congregate with other immigrants.

I'm not for ghettoization and so yeah, governments should encourage integration, but some things you just have to let happen with time. And if people want to carry on their old practices and stuff that's their right so long as they aren't hurting anyone.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:ElLdo wiki's section on the Scttottish Parliament covers the voting sytem quite well- for the MSP's a mix of First Past the Post and a list PR system. European elections are PR, local council elections list PR.

That's more or less what I got the impression of. Are MSPs mostly FPTP, or PR, or is it an even split?
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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 4:29 pm

Theres a percent voted in as FPTP and a percent on the list- there ar emore list than FPTP- so its marginally more PR.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 17, 2013 4:35 pm

First tv debate last night on the referendum-Deputy First Ministe rof the Scottish Parliament debating with Michael Moore- Secreteray of State for Scotland.

The actual debate starts about the 9 minute mark.


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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri May 17, 2013 4:37 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:if immigration is left unchecked it makes for ghettos and unrest and an us against them mentality building up into race hate.- Mrs Figg

I think this is a difference between us Mrs Figgs. Its not that such attitudes dont exist here- they do in the very urbanised areas and to leser degree.
But two other factors come into play, we try to spread immigrants out more so they dont all end up in one block of flats or one estate or street, and we simply have less urbanised areas.
Glasgow being the main one. So a lot of the population who live in more rural areas might have seen an increase in non Scots residents, but nothing alarming to give a sense the English seem to have of being swamped, and losing communitis to new cultures.
And ost of us grew up in Scottish towns where there already were immigrants, all be it in traditional roles- the Indians ran the Indian restraunt, the Chinese the chinese one, and the Itialians made ice cream and ran a cafe.
So the idea of different cultures bubbling along into one is how Scotland works.
And that plays into a sense of being a mongrel nation in the first place and Scots have travelled the world and emmigrated, we have a long proud tradition of Scots leaving here and being infuluencial elsewhere in the world, and you cant have it both ways.
And lastly the type of immigrant is different. Most of the work needed here is skilled, we have less demand for low level workers and more for highly skilled ones. And they get very good wages and liive in nice areas.

yes I understand and agree with your points and I would say that what you describe was very true in England in maybe the 70s/80s. because I remember it. When I grew up there were historic immigrant groups well integrated and relatively well liked. Such as China town in Manchester. there was the local Indian and later West Indian community and we all rubbed together quite peacefully. then over the last maybe 20 years the shit has hit the fan and in areas of Bradford for example , there are literally NO English people and its a ghetto, as are some areas of Manchester. There is also the rise of the underclass which did not exist before. All these are new and alarming things. there seem to be an open floodgate policy by the Gvt and then to add insult to injury cases like that terrorist toerag moaning about his rights while plotting Death and destruction. English people are noted for being pretty tolerant and not extremist, we dont have Le Penn or other fascists in power they have always been on the loony Right and justly lampooned as being idiots we dont want in power, but people are worried about the legacy for their kids educated ordinary people not right wing or racist, just worried and angry, thats why UKIP has got votes I guess.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri May 17, 2013 4:37 pm

Ally wrote:Name me one area where an entire community has been replaced by another one. You can't. It hasn't happened. Local highstreets still have all kind of shops, as they always have. If there is an anxiety it is one held by the minority & I think we can ignore them as there is actual evidence which counters all of their arguments.

I can actually. go to Bradford.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri May 17, 2013 4:40 pm

Ally wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:I dont think immigrants are the scapegoat at all. its got nothing to do with the usual 'they come over here and take our jobs' rubbish. its nothing to do with racism. its about taking care of the British people first in their own country, if people feel like second class citizens in their own country it causes bad feeling to boil over and it gives ammunition to the real fascists. there has Always been poverty and low pay and for half a century integrated immigration, if immigration is left unchecked it makes for ghettos and unrest and an us against them mentality building up into race hate. thats why UKIP has a voice it has a voice because of these deep seated feelings of anxiety, that the mamby pamby politicians have let political correct idiocy run mad.


I think we can ignore such delightfully bigoted and moronic ramblings about British citizens feeling like 'second class citizens'. Gated communities can be areas of white British people too. UKIP has no policy on urban planning or helping the poor. UKIP has no voice and it will gain no power.


oh the self righteous ramblings of Youth. Mad

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by azriel on Fri May 17, 2013 6:23 pm

I wondered when this debate would raise its ugly head ! I say "ugly" as its such a touchy subject. The way the world is turning,its inevitable. We can only speak as we feel, or as we see,how it effects us ? Where I live its a heated subject completely ! Word on the street is, that this is a small Island, we have only so much room & resorces. How can we sustain the growing population ? No jobs, no housing ? There are 100s of families where I live,waiting & waiting for social housing as they are to poor to raise enough dosh for private housing. The rules & stipulations that go with private tenants are limiting. No pets,No DHSS, No kids even ! People are feeling depressed & demoralised enough as it is & then, after all the time of waiting,often in cramp, crappy conditions, they see Non British people getting the help the British are asking for ! Many of these landlords themselves are Arab,Iranian,turkish etc & that,to the people in MY town,feel that its rubbing salt into the wound. People say that the foreigners will do the jobs British people wont do,that the British are lazy !but, & I speak from experiance here, When you go after jobs,you notice later on that your job was given to an immigrant, & you wonder why ? Sadly,this WILL give rise to hatred to immigrants,when it LOOKS like they get preferential treatment. Same as for social housing. If you see a Chinese family or even a single chinese person recieve a flat or house before you, you wonder why. Yet again,hatred creeps in. British people feel they are treated unfairly & second class in their OWN country. I also know of ONE town that has changed drastically from one culture to another..Erith, in Kent. In fact, in some towns its rare to see a face that isnt coloured. Im not sticking knives in here, just stating observations & re-telling what Ive heard from people I see each day.We have an abundance of gifted,bright,willing,energetic young people who want to really make something of their lives, but, fear of owing University fees are killing that off, plus, as Ive heard, they feel they stand less chance because Foreigners SEEM to be prefered ?? Its confusing & feels like an unjust society at mo ?? Im not sure what the answer is ?? But,its no good burying your head in the sand as really,the problem IS getting worse ?? Some of it is whipped up hysteria, & the media enjoy that, it feeds the polititians, gives them a stick to beat you with, they can concentrate on that issue to bend your mind round to what THEY want you to think. I believe it leads to more racial hate, whether its a bit of bullying in the playground, all the way to burning a shop down because, someone called "abdul" owns it.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Eldorion on Fri May 17, 2013 6:35 pm

The anti-immigration types would probably face fewer accusations of racism if their complaints didn't all contain the unstated assumption that British = white and non-white = foreign.
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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri May 17, 2013 6:55 pm

I agree Azriel. I also get miffed at people being called racist for stating common sense facts and telling it like it is without pc claptrap. I am an immigrant in Italy, nobody helps me and I have no automatic 'right' to work or benefits because there aint any benefits, no dole no housing benefit, no housing or council property. if i dont work I starve (in theory). If i started whinging and moaning that there was prejudice against me or that I was disadvantaged I would get the answer 'its tough shit go home'. If I went around with a sense of entitlement that the state owed me a job I would just be laughed at for a fool. and I think thats totally fair enough. I wasnt born here, its not my country of origin, There is no positive discrimination here, no protection and no race discrimination Act which forbids employers from refusing Black/Asian jobseekers. Obviously I aint Black/Asian, but here a foreginer is a foreigner and therefore not looked on favourably.
luckily I have Always worked and done any jobs available when my work as a restorer was lacking. You cant just sit on your jacksie and feel a martyr,

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri May 17, 2013 7:02 pm

Eldorion wrote:The anti-immigration types would probably face fewer accusations of racism if their complaints didn't all contain the unstated assumption that British = white and non-white = foreign.

I dont think they do. there are thousands of people born in England from foreign countries, thousands of mixed marriages and kids. its those foreigners that ghetto themselves and cant even speak English and refuse to integrate, its people who come over with all their family, get free health care and then bugger off home that rankles. its not the colour of their skin, they could be Martians painted pink for all people care, its people riding the system that has to stop. unfortunately the pc brigade call that racism when its just a question of economics and a burden on tax payers.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri May 17, 2013 7:05 pm

no doubt I am now officially a racist fascist Conservative ass licker.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by azriel on Fri May 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Yes Eldo, there is THAT point, I do agree. But as Ive said, Im not the one sticking knives in. Im happy to live a quite life. I dont want to interfere with anyone, & I dont want anyone to interfere with me. Im of the "let sleeping dogs lie". Ive noticed where I live,that on a daily basis, immigration is becoming more & more of a daily topic. You cant sit on a bus or walk round a shop without hearing people talk, & loudly sometimes. We are living in a multi cultural society & views will be voiced. It all depends how far you want to take it I guess ?? Im like "whatever", If there was a war, Im the one hiding in the woods yelling "pacifist". I can be called ignorant,stupid,delusional,living in a daydream, I dont care. I dont like violence, I hate name calling, Im sick of "race crime", Im sick of seeing young lads acting cocky & calling out names to people, punch ups in the street etc. You can say I live in "airy fairy" land, fine, at least, I guess, thats better than physically hurting someone ?? Which I dont want to do !

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by azriel on Fri May 17, 2013 7:19 pm

I do agree with what you say Mrs Figg, about the "Tough Shit" statement ! I dont give a toss if your yellow with blue stripes on, its the system that stinks. And YES, I AM pissed off that in a country of so called "free speech", we are told we are racist if we speak of, as you point out, common sense issues. The PC brigade has actually caused problems by going to far ! for instance...when I was a child I had a soft toy, it was a Golliwog, which I liked. BUT, the PC Brigade said NO !! you cant say Golly WOG now ! What ?? gollywog was a toy, it didnt mean anything derogatory, he was a fun toy, I never thought of anything nasty associated with him, BUT, now the PC Brigade have brought it to my attention, its turned what was once a toy into something that should only be whispered ! its a deep dark SIN ! see ? Ive used the word "dark" ! thats enough to cause a bloody war ! going PC has made some people touchy & thats a scarey place to be ? Its only dangerous if there is malicious intent. I dont believe people begin with malicious intent, its been hightened by ignorant do-gooders.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Ally on Fri May 17, 2013 10:07 pm

Bradford is no more segregated than anywhere else- it is segregated by money. The White British remains the largest group in both Manchester and Bradford, and by far the wealthiest. These segregated areas that you complain of are actually in reality the most diverse despite the crap they have to put up with.

I assume by terrorist you mean Abu Qatada. Personally I'm glad as a country we respect human rights.

I'm not going to go nitpicking through your points and proving you wrong. But maybe it would surprise you that only 0.27 of the popuation can't speak English. Take way legitimate refugees and you've with a tiny percentage of people. The majority of right thinking people would agree with me. Don't buy the lies.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri May 17, 2013 10:32 pm

''I assume by terrorist you mean Abu Qatada. Personally I'm glad as a country we respect human rights''.

its attitudes of that nature that allow hate filled arrogant wankers to ride the system, laugh in our faces and plan the next car bombing spree, god preserve us from political correct do gooders.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri May 17, 2013 10:34 pm

''Bradford is no more segregated than anywhere else- it is segregated by money''

no actually is segregated by race. some areas of Bradford are no go areas if you are White and vice versa if you are Asian.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Post by Ally on Fri May 17, 2013 10:43 pm

That's a legacy of white flight from those areas to more middle class and affluent areas. Segregation by wealth forced upon them and then you accuse them of failing to integrate.

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