Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by David H on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:51 am

Earlier than that I think. The concept is at heart of the 4th Amendment "unreasonable search and siezure", and also the concept of "private property". The idea is basically that what you do in your own home is your own damn business until a court rules otherwise with a warrant. Including fanning.

Google provides this:
The principles of the Fourth Amendment, the autonomy and inviolability of an individual's body and home, date back to Biblical times. Under Roman legal codes, a victim of theft could not instigate a search in a suspect's house without first specifically describing the items sought; and several witnesses were required to be present during the search. (Search and Seizure http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/01.html)


The right of protection from the sovereign's searches and seizures is one of the most fundamental rights developed in our constitutional tradition. This principle existed in English common law, and later it found its way to the U.S. Constitution. Two principles were accepted on both continents at the time of the American Revolution and are embodied in the amendment:

1. General warrants were unacceptable; British and American citizens preferred search warrants used only with probable cause, and precisely stating the person or place to be searched and the items to be seized; and
2. Warrantless searches were not favored except on rare occasions, and then only as part of a lawful arrest. (http://www.abanet.org/media/june96/drugs.html)

The first record in English common law of search and seizure protection was Semayneâs case, in 1603, which proclaimed the maxim,

"Every man's house is his castle." Semayne's case demonstrated the principle at the heart of the Fourth Amendment in protection from the sovereign, but it also recognizes the authority of the state to enter, with notice, to arrest or execute the King's orders. (Findlaw.com http://www.findworld.com/data/Constitution/amendment04/01.html#3)

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:09 am

Yup. And for the same reasons its been illegal in both our countries to tamper with mail without a warrant and just cause.
And I see no fundamental difference in principle between private correspondence via letter or email.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Eldorion on Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:44 pm

David Cameron doing all he can do to prove his critics right.  This is where a constitutionally guaranteed right to freedom of the press comes in handy. Wink

http://boingboing.net/2013/10/29/david-cameron-threatens-injunc.html
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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by halfwise on Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:09 pm

Not familiar enough with the Cameron backstory to comment, so back to privacy.

It's an incredibly fluid concept. The young kids posting everything on facebook clearly have a very different idea of privacy than the older generations. The American constitution is very clear about entry and seizure of property, mail tampering was left up to subsequent lawmaking. My guess is that there is so much worry about internet security that lawmakers will avoid internet privacy laws as long as there's no outcry to install them. I'd suspect they will try to monitor acts of agencies, but never draw a clear line if they can help it.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Orwell on Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:11 pm

In Russia Snowden would be shot (or disappeared) as a traitor, but by the Leftish Liberal West he's made into a hero (like Ned Kelly in a way), and he finds succour in - well - Russia! This is why Dictatorships have an unfair advantage over the Free Speaking West. Dictatorships seem to have all the unfair advantages, mind.  Ironic he find refuge there, what. A bit like Saint Julian Assange in a way. Another great believer in Freedom but who wants to flee to a South American country with no Free Press, instead of staying and standing up to defend his Ethical behaviour before the Law, and where the Press will give him a platform to defend himself, though some Journalists will express their Free views against him as well. Ironies abound, what.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:48 am

There are a lot of great things about living in a liberal democracy, but I don't see how you can feel confident that the United States would give Snowden a fair trial when they already tried Manning under the blatantly unconstitutional Espionage Act of 1917.
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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:36 am

I dont see what good having a free press written into a constitution does, given Governments always have exceptions to it under some spurious claim like National Security- all a written constitution protecting freedom of the press does is lead to secret trials in front of military courts where this is little emphasis on justice.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Orwell on Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:50 am

 
Eldorion wrote:There are a lot of great things about living in a liberal democracy, but I don't see how you can feel confident that the United States would give Snowden a fair trial when they already tried Manning under the blatantly unconstitutional Espionage Act of 1917.
In 1917? scratch

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Orwell on Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:51 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I dont see what good having a free press written into a constitution does, given Governments always have exceptions to it under some spurious claim like National Security- all a written constitution protecting freedom of the press does is lead to secret trials in front of military courts where this is little emphasis on justice.
Should anything be secret?

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:13 pm

I'm not sure about that Orwell. I am not sure that the desire and practise of gaining and holding secrets is not the very thing that makes it seem necessarily to gain and hold secrets.

Its always worth bearnig in mind when dealing with such matters that from any external viewpoint the human race is stark staring bonkers. Nod 

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:13 pm

Orwell wrote:In 1917? scratch
The law was passed in 1917 during the shameful period of hysteria and paranoia that the US went through during World War I. Manning's trial was just a few months ago, though. The Espionage Act has remained on the books and is still used periodically to prosecute whistleblowers.
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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Orwell on Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:40 pm

Eldorion wrote:Manning's trial was just a few months ago, though.
No fair trial? If so - outrageous!


 
Eldorion wrote:The Espionage Act has remained on the books and is still used periodically to prosecute whistleblowers.
Needs repeal then as being unfair?


Last edited by Orwell on Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Orwell on Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:45 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I'm not sure about that Orwell. I am not sure that the desire and practise of gaining and holding secrets is not the very thing that makes it seem necessarily to gain and hold secrets.
I gues being transparent would be good, but if the Russians and the Chinese (and every other Coubtry on Earth) have ecrets, won't that put America at something of a disadvantage?  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its always worth bearning in mind when dealing with such matters that from any external viewpoint the human race is stark staring bonkers. Nod 
A belief in God/s or Aliens (which I assume underlies your comment) is also thought (by some) to be bonkers. Very Happy

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:52 pm

I think the belief in aliens is far from bonkers and can be supported from both statistical and biological stand points.

But there is no getting round the fact we are as a race, as Douglas Adams noted, unhappy, and we try to solve our unhappiness by the movement of small green pieces of paper, even though its not the small green pieces of paper which are unhappy.

Seems pretty bonkers to me.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Orwell on Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:18 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I think the belief in aliens is far from bonkers and can be supported from both statistical and biological stand points.
At last, it all makes sense. Shocked 

Pettytyrant101 wrote:But there is no getting round the fact we are as a race, as Douglas Adams noted, unhappy, and we try to solve our unhappiness by the movement of small green pieces of paper, even though its not the small green pieces of paper which are unhappy. Seems pretty bonkers to me.
To me too. Shocked 

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by halfwise on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:17 pm

That line (like most lines from HGG) is best when said by the original BBC radio narrator. Impeccable delivery. Did he ever win any awards for that performance?

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:33 pm



(Thats DA himself going butt naked into the sea)

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by halfwise on Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:35 am

Is that the actual narration from the radio play?  It doesn't sound *exactly* how I remember it (in my mind it was a bit more spritely), and the music sounds added in as well.  But I'd need to go check to see...have the CD's handy, just have to make myself go and listen.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:00 am

Thats the BBC tv version- I think they rerecorded all the sound for it. Same 'book' though in both TV and radio and the LP's, Peter Jones.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by halfwise on Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:11 am

Then his radio delivery was a bit better. This one doesn't stick in the ear quite so well.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:51 pm

The Uk's spy masters are before a Commons Committee for a general answer and question session (one of those weird ones where they cant actually say much of relevance in public) but one comment did standout to me as it doesnt seem exactly, complimentary, of our US counterparts in the spy biz-

'Sir David Omand defended the closeness of Britain's intelligence relationship with the US, "We have the brains. They have the money."

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:58 pm

I think more or less the same thing was said in WWII.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by Eldorion on Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:15 pm

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by RA on Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:20 pm

It's really spooky when you consider the recent discovery of the NSA being behind malware dating back to 2008.

http://techraptor.net/content/nsa-tied-regin-malware

This, of course, was interly speculative. Untill today. By comparing Regin’s code to that of the terribly named keylogging program Qwerty, researchers at Kaspersky Lab were able to shared code between the two. Qwerty, one of many files leaked by Edward Snowden, was recently made available by the German newspaper Der Spiegal. Once this was availble, the Kaspersky lab researchers were not only able to prove a link between the two programs, but as well proved Qwerty’s dependence on Regin. The researches conclude their blog post with;

Our analysis of the QWERTY malware published by Der Spiegel indicates it is a plugin designed to work part of the Regin platform. The QWERTY keylogger doesn’t function as a stand-alone module, it relies on kernel hooking functions which are provided by the Regin module 50225. Considering the extreme complexity of the Regin platform and little chance that it can be duplicated by somebody without having access to its sourcecodes, we conclude the QWERTY malware developers and the Regin developers are the same or working together.

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Re: Edward Snowden: Robin Hood or just robber?

Post by halfwise on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:34 pm


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