How did...

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How did...

Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:39 pm

...Gollum manage to follow the Fellowship through Moria when the bridge was destroyed? The question occured to me while rereading FotR and may have been asked before, but in that case I must have missed it. Gollum's chase seems a little too fantastic to me, especially when most of the other stuff is realistic enough (despite the fact that it is fantasy). Did he climb the roof? Suspect 

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Re: How did...

Post by azriel on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:00 pm

Mmmmm, good question Ringdrotten ! Also HOW did Gollum get INTO Moria if the "doors of Durin" collapsed after the "watcher in the water" caved them in ? If we are going by PJs film version that is ? I can only think he found a water way & slinked in or out that way ? seeing as hes very adept in water ? He certainly hid himself when the action kicked off, evading Goblins, Balrog as well as Gandalf & crew !

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Re: How did...

Post by David H on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:56 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:...Gollum manage to follow the Fellowship through Moria when the bridge was destroyed? The question occured to me while rereading FotR and may have been asked before, but in that case I must have missed it. Gollum's chase seems a little too fantastic to me, especially when most of the other stuff is realistic enough (despite the fact that it is fantasy). Did he climb the roof? Suspect 

I'll take a shot at this. It says somewhere that the bridge was built over the chasm as an inner line of defense in case the outer halls were captured, like a bridge and moat at the main entrance of a castle. But there still need to be the tradesman entrances, small and easily closed off in time of war.

I'm imagining that there are a number of small passages where the day to day life of Khazad-Dum came and went. Destroying the bridge wasn't discussed as stopping the orcs, just slowing them down.

And of course Gollum was a professional goblin stalker from his life in the Misty Mountains, a master of eavesdropping for news and sneaking along in the shadows behind them. So I'm imagining it would have been natural when the bridge fell, for the pursuing orcs to be talking about and following other pathways, with Gollum listening from the shadows and following. That could potentially get him to the gate faster than if he had a map, and not more than a few hours behind the Fellowship.

What do you think? Plausible?
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Re: How did...

Post by CC12 35 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:24 pm

THE PLOT HINGES ON A RING THAT MAKES THE WEARER INVISIBLE RINGDROTTEN

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Re: How did...

Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:48 pm

CC12 35 wrote:THE PLOT HINGES ON A RING THAT MAKES THE WEARER INVISIBLE RINGDROTTEN

Really? I must've been thinking of another book.

"What do you think? Plausible? " - David

Plausible Nod I like the tradesman entrances idea, I hadn't thought of that. I thought of Gollum's history of being a pro goblin assassin as well, but that he should manage to follow the Fellowship even after all that happened in Moria seemed a bit too awesome to me. But perhaps, as you point out, the destroyed bridge wasn't the obstacle I thought it was.

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Re: How did...

Post by CC12 35 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:50 pm

was that Sarah Sarcasm

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Re: How did...

Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:53 pm

And people say that sarcasm cannot be conveyed in written form Wink

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Re: How did...

Post by CC12 35 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:55 pm

yh im some what of an genius so i got it strait away  but well played Sarah Sarcarsm

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Re: How did...

Post by halfwise on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:22 am

Gollum was also described as being already in Moria when the fellowship entered. He was uniquely suited to survive in such an environment.

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Re: How did...

Post by CC12 35 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:10 am

how did i NOT know it was National Tequila Day until just now?!? Celebrate it, y'all

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Re: How did...

Post by Orwell on Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:07 am

Maybe Golllum was already lurking about in Moria when the Fellowship got there? The orcs somehow knew they were there, why not that nosey little bugger finding out? And it's hard to imagine the bridge was the only entry point into Moria proper other than the one where the Watcher lurked, so I think Dave's on the money there.

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Re: How did...

Post by Elthir on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:58 pm

As Halfwise noted already, Appendix B [August, year 3018] states that it is thought that Gollum took refuge in Moria, before the Company arrived [January 3019], but could not find a way out at the West-gate.

After Gandalf's fall, Aragorn seems to think, or hope, that the orcs will not follow until after dusk. I suppose he could be thinking of orcs on the other side of the bridge, but anyway one of the orcs [chapter The Uruk-hai] notes that they have come from the Mines to kill, and avenge his folk. The bridge was a 'curving spring of fifty feet', an ancient defense of the Dwarves against anyone who might capture the First Hall and the outer passages.

This does seem to suggest, at least, it was the only way, but on the other hand this might not really speak to the fuller picture, as David notes. And in any case Gollum certainly followed somewhow, and seemingly the orcs in general. David's theory seems plausible, but just to toss another one in...

... although fifty feet is notable, perhaps some sort of a makeshift 'bridge' of rope? There were orcs on the other side already...

... well if that helps sell another idea.
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Re: How did...

Post by David H on Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:21 pm

Hi Elthir! Good to see you back.:carrot: 

A repair to the bridge certainly is plausible too. And as I re-read it, although the bridge spans 50 feet, it appears that most of it didn't fall. "The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness."

While it doesn't sound very secure, it suggests that the gap may have been as small as 5 or 10 feet, just enough to take down a Balrog. That could be quickly bridged and reinforced without much engineering. (Not that you'd get me to walk across it....affraid )
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Re: How did...

Post by Elthir on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:01 pm

Hi David, yes I was whelmed at 500 posts... and needed a break.

But about the bridge, soon after [your quote] the rest of it fell-- so that's why I was wondering if about 50 feet [or so] was a bit of a stretch for even a rope 'bridge'...

... or even a single rope I guess, for orcs to go over, and maybe Gollum at some point.
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Re: How did...

Post by azriel on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:24 pm

I still like the idea of subterraneum water courses for Gollum to slink along in. Do you not need water for mining ? There was a very deep well that Pippin knocked a skeleton down ? (causing a delightful crash for all the world to hear !)

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Re: How did...

Post by David H on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:30 pm

OK then, I'll be careful to underwhelm you in the future Very Happy .

Ah yes, I see the total collapse now.  No 50 ft is not too far for a rope suspension bridge. They're done all the time. But there would be engineering challenges that would take time such as appropriate size of line and strong, well-located anchor points.  

You would typically throw a light messenger line across, then use it to pull a succession of heavier lines until you had ones capable of supporting the bridge and load.  But unless you were around a seaport you probably wouldn't have access to ropes of those diameters and lengths on a minute's notice.

Unless the orcs had supplied and drilled to replace bridges, I'd expect it to take at least a couple days.

I was also thinking it interesting that JRRT used the plot device of blowing a bridge to cover a tactical retreat. It was so much a part of the tactics of WWII, crossing the Rhine and such. I can think of a couple instances in the American Civil War,  but I can't off hand think of it in literature before then.  Any thoughts?
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Re: How did...

Post by Ally on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:56 pm

gollum is that finding routes like a tomtom with traffic updates guy

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Re: How did...

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:39 pm

Elthir- great to see you back {{and with 5 months left to ensure the Lore Master Award for this year, very sneaky }}}

Regards Gollum I think Gandalf says somewhere that it was pure luck for Gollum the Fellowship entered Moria, as he was basically stuck in there unable to open the Western Doors and heading for starvation as orcs did not normally go so far west.
He then followed them through Moria, but after a certain point, given Gollum must have come that way over the bridge originally, he would have guessed where they were going- out the other side so easily could have crossed before they did, given it was the only route available.
Therefore no need for alternatives or bridge repairs, he simply crossed first whilst they were in the Hall of Records, or even before that once Gollum recognized were they were from his original journey through and would have realised where they were going.
He probably went out first driven by the need to get water and food.


Last edited by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: How did...

Post by CC12 35 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:40 pm

Laughing

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Re: How did...

Post by Elthir on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:08 pm

Hmm, yes David I was thinking more of a simple rope crossing as a 'bridge' although it would be perilous, hand over hand [but the orcs would be angry and arguably try it], but yes one would rather quickly need the appropriate rope and anchor points, which seems at least a bit strained, I would agree.


Hey Petty and all!

Petty your idea seems the best to me so far, if there's nothing in the text to whelm it [word of the day], but we also have following orcs too; although as I say we do have some number of orcs on the other side already...

... so maybe we can use these to follow instead of them catching rope and anchoring it... ah somehow Very Happy
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Re: How did...

Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:12 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Therefore no need for alternatives or bridge repairs, he simply crossed first whilst they were in the Hall of Records, or even before that once Gollum recognized were they were from his original journey through and would have realised where they were going.

Those moments when you think "Why didn't I think of that first"? Mad... Wink I like this suggestion too, it makes a lot of sense. I've been enjoying reading the rest of the suggestions, though Smile

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Re: How did...

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:28 pm

You just need some more buckie Ringdrotten. Twisted Evil 

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Re: How did...

Post by CC12 35 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:47 pm

wld Hildegard of Bingen have found me annoying i wonder

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