Horses in middle earth

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:40 pm

silver-grey no?

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Elthir on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:43 pm

Here are two descriptions Petty, at least. In the first it appears to be daytime, and Gandalf and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli have moved out from Fangorn forest. Gandalf says: 'Does he not shine like silver, and run as smoothly as a swift steam' And as the horse approached, Shadowfax's coat '... was glistening and his mane flowing in the wind of his speed.'

The next scenario is a bit different, as in the gloom Pippin, in Minas Tirith [The Siege of Gondor], catches a 'flash of white and silver' coming from the North, 'like a small star down on the dusky fields' and it 'seemed to Pippin that a pale light was spread about it and the heavy shadows gave way before it'.

This is Gandalf [white] riding Shadowfax of course, although a gloomy scenario here.
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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:50 pm

Interesting- I think the first description 'does he not shine like silver'- is in a different context - in that its the words of a character, to the authoritative voice of the writer.

The second one is the voice of the writer, but at a point where Gandalf the White is putting forth some of his power. Shadowfax likewise is a magical creature so perhaps is also putting forth power at this moment of description.
Perhaps the use of silver alludes to Shadowfax's otherworldy powers?

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by David H on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:57 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:silver-grey no?
SILVER = GREY + SHINY
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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:05 pm

I suppose fax probably coming from the word facsimile meaning copy or duplicate, so Shadoxfax was the replica of a shadow, so are shadows grey? well in full sunlight shadows look different to shadows at twilight, are they silver when the moon shines on them I dont know
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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Norc on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:08 pm

azriel wrote:There's a sentence in my book that says Shadowfax was grey ?
here on the forum we have unfortunately more than 50 shades of grey.

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by azriel on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:09 pm

Razz 

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Norc on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:12 pm

so ... silver. ok. and grey? like.. shadow? and.. like..erm.. what kind of grey/silver? spotted? born that way?

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Elthir on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:33 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I suppose fax probably coming from the word facsimile meaning copy or duplicate, so Shadoxfax was the replica of a shadow, so are shadows grey? well in full sunlight shadows look different to shadows at twilight, are they silver when the moon shines on them I dont know
Fax represents an old word from Old English feax 'hair, head of hair', Icelandic 'mane'. Tolkien once called Celegorm 'Fairfax' due to his hair.

Thus Tolkien's Sceadu-feax [Shadowfax] 'having shadow-grey mane (and coat)'  [Nomenclature]. Note also the horse names, in Norse mythology, Skinfaxi and Hrímfaxi.

Here's other references to 'like silver' or silver...

'And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world. (...) Shadowfax they called him. By day his coat glistens like silver; and by night it is like a shade, and he passes unseen.'

Source: edited

'Give me Shadowfax! He was only lent before, if loan we may call it. But now I shall ride him into great hazard, setting silver against black: I would not risk anything that is not my own. And already there is a bond of love between us.' King of the Golden Hall

Source: not edited

'Even as they looked he was gone: a flash of silver in the sunset, a wind over the grass, a shadow that fled and passed from sight.' Helm's Deep

Source: edited out but then written in again.
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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:08 am

I don't know if 'silver' looks better than 'grey/gray' but it sounds better in my opinion - kind of 'glinty', if you know what I mean. (I'm alluding to Tolkien things as read here). So - at the risk of impertinently offering ideas to the more learnéd Colour Theorists here - maybe silver (as read) is just a shinier version of grey/gray (as read) - even when it only holds a dull silver lustre (as read)? You know, even if it hasn't been polished for awhile? Or 'brushed' if you happen to be a horse. Very Happy

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by David H on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:49 am

Orwell wrote:I don't know if 'silver' looks better than 'grey/gray' but it sounds better in my opinion - kind of 'glinty', if you know what I mean. (I'm alluding to Tolkien things as read here). So - at the risk of impertinently offering ideas to the more learnéd Colour Theorists here - maybe silver (as read) is just a shinier version of grey/gray (as read) - even when it only holds a dull silver lustre (as read)? You know, even if it hasn't been polished for awhile? Or 'brushed' if you happen to be a horse. Very Happy
David H wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:silver-grey no?
SILVER = GREY + SHINY
Am I seeing a consensus forming? Shocked ..... with Petty AND Orwell???pale 

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:37 am

I much prefer to gang up on people than be ganged up on - other than that, I bear you no ill will, Davey. Very Happy 

Admittedly, I did not see Petty's comment - as I prefer not read his dribble - so our agreement here is purely accidental (and I'll be more careful in future, him being a Scotshobbit and all).

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by David H on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:45 am

{{{Fair enough Orwell.  Accidents happen to all of us.
I've been trying to avoid agreeing with Petty myself, at least until he gets around to mailing my fashdrive.  
One doesn't want to reward bad behavior. }}}
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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:22 am

David H wrote:{{{}}}
{{{I don't plan to make the same mitake twice. Mad  Even if it involves having to pay better attention to Petty's dribble! Suspect Oh yes, and a word of advice. Always be aware of that old Forumshire saying: "A Scotshobbit never keeps his promises." Odo filled me in on that years ago. I, myself, was promised a video at one stage - his promises aren't limited to promising to forward flashrives, you know. Not that I would ever be as facile as to bring up that deep disappointment again and again and again... Rolling Eyes }}}

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Norc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:28 am

i was just going to respond to the fax-machine thing. Shadowfax is called Skuggfaks in norwegian, witch means shadow+maine Smile old word there too ^^


also. why the hell is shadowfax white? Legolas' horse is white ..-ish.

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by David H on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:37 am

Norc wrote:i was just going to respond to the fax-machine thing. Shadowfax is called Skuggfaks in norwegian, witch means shadow+maine Smile old word there too ^^


also. why the hell is shadowfax white?
What makes you think he's white?Suspect 
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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Norc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:08 am

in the movie duh..

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Norc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:09 am

maybe it's just a wardrobe malfunction Laughing

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by David H on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:34 pm

Norc wrote:maybe it's just a wardrobe malfunction Laughing
Quite true.  Very Happy 

Which is related to the discussion of if he is truly white, or if he is a grey horse who merely appears white. Wink 
Shall I repost it from the Loremaster thread for those who missed it?study
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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by halfwise on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:05 pm

Norc wrote: Shadowfax is called Skuggfaks in norwegian
Umm..."Skuggfaks"??!!  Razz :facepalm: 

Much as Tolkien may have been under the spell of Nordic influences, that was never gonna fly.

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Norc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:31 pm

David H wrote:
Norc wrote:maybe it's just a wardrobe malfunction Laughing
Quite true.  Very Happy 

Which is related to the discussion of if he is truly white, or if he is a grey horse who merely appears white. Wink 
Shall I repost it from the Loremaster thread for those who missed it?study
what exactly do u mean by that?

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Norc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:33 pm

halfwise wrote:
Norc wrote: Shadowfax is called Skuggfaks in norwegian
Umm..."Skuggfaks"??!!  Razz :facepalm: 

Much as Tolkien may have been under the spell of Nordic influences, that was never gonna fly.
what the hell are u laughing at, i think it sounds better and more ancient that "shadowfax" (sounds like something from the marvel universe). skugge is an old word for skygge meaning shadow, it sounds more icelandic cus it doesn't have the sh-sound.

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Amarië on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:26 pm

halfwise wrote:
Norc wrote: Shadowfax is called Skuggfaks in norwegian
Umm..."Skuggfaks"??!!  Razz :facepalm: 

Much as Tolkien may have been under the spell of Nordic influences, that was never gonna fly.
Skuggfaks is a lovely name, why do you assume a Norwegian word should have a English pronunciation? It's not "Skagg".

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:09 pm

Amarië wrote:Skuggfaks is a lovely name, why do you assume a Norwegian word should have a English pronunciation? It's not "Skagg".

Skuggfaks. Skagg. Shagrat. Noweigan. Norc. Norcish. Orcish. My gawwwwwd! Shocked

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Re: Horses in middle earth

Post by halfwise on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:13 am

Norc wrote:
halfwise wrote:
Norc wrote: Shadowfax is called Skuggfaks in norwegian
Umm..."Skuggfaks"??!!  Razz :facepalm: 

Much as Tolkien may have been under the spell of Nordic influences, that was never gonna fly.
what the hell are u laughing at, i think it sounds better and more ancient that "shadowfax" (sounds like something from the marvel universe). skugge is an old word for skygge meaning shadow, it sounds more icelandic cus it doesn't have the sh-sound.
To a native English speaker it sounds very lowly: UGly, pUG nosed, or lowly objects: tUG, rUG. We say "ugh" when we don't like something.  The only strongly positive connotation I can think of with that sound would be "hug" or "snuggle".  Note that J.K. Rowling went for that sound to denote disdain: muggles.

No, Skuggfaks would not work in English.

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