Religous debates and questions [2]

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by halfwise on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:10 pm

Shrugging 

How is anyone supposed to get crabbit about that?

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:26 pm

Oh I found a way Halfy, but its best left to us professional crabbits.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:43 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:So basically Halfy- he's jut a politician in a dress?
Of course he's a politician. He's the head of a massive worldwide institution and also the absolute leader of a technically sovereign state. There's also bound to be pushback so I'm not at all surprised that he hasn't thrown open the Vatican's vaults already. He's been criticized for stuff as simple as not wearing the opulent robes that his predecessors did and not sitting on a giant throne during meetings.
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:48 pm

He has the authority to hand over the documents the UN is demanding to see. He could do that, or least make the effort to do that rather than keeping it all secret.
But he doesnt because it would reveal the Church has been covering this up for decades and implicate many, many Church leaders, if not directly then in the cover ups- and it in some cases probably went all they way up to the Pope.

But as the UN request is legally binding it will be interesting come January to see what they do (and can do) if the Vatican simply refuses to comply.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:50 pm

not really interested in the Vatican as a seat of past corruption.- Mrs Figg

I thin it would be more accurate to change that to 'not really interested in the Vatican as a seat of present corruption.'

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:53 pm

Rolling Eyes 

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:25 pm

I know of a group of Benedictine nuns who are nice people by anybody's standards and do a lot of good in the world in a quiet way. They've been very open to questioning some of the outdated social dogma of the Catholic Church, especially relating to women's issues, while always being respectful to the structure of the church. As a result they'd been feeling increasing pressure to "shut up" under the old administration. I'm hoping they'll get more respect from the new administration. They certainly deserve it!

I guess my bigger point is that there is a lot of interest in change within the Catholic Church, particularly in the Americas and particularly in the monastic orders.  If Pope Francis can tap into that, I think he's got a chance of making some meaningful long-term changes  far greater than opening the books would do. And his choice of the name Francis seems to point to that approach-- going outside the established power structures of the church to work with real people rather than picking fights within.  I'm hopeful, but only time will tell.
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:30 pm

Its all fine and well that he should put in place the structure and attitude that this sort of thing is unacceptable in the future (and I hope he does)- but the Church and its guilty members also need to be held to account for the crimes already committed or there is no justice for the victims.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by halfwise on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:39 pm

Yes, but by moving too heedlessly you risk destroying the very institution you are trying to fix. We still don't know if he's going to do any of this, but if he does he'll move cautiously rather than ruthlessly.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:02 pm

you risk destroying the very institution you are trying to fix- Halfy

I have to admit I would not shed a single tear if that happened (for the record that goes for the disappearance of any organised religion) and if you commit crimes so heinous, so institutionalised, over such a long period of time maybe being closed down is not only what is deserved, but is for the best.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:08 pm

I wouldn't really mourn the loss of the Catholic Church either, but obviously the College of Cardinals would not elect someone Pope unless they were devoted to the Church, so I can't reasonably criticize the Pope for trying to preserve the future of his Church so long as he is at least also making positive progress.
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:14 pm

I can't reasonably criticize the Pope for trying to preserve the future of his Church so long as he is at least also making positive progress.- Eldo

I agree you cant expect him to dismantle his own church, but making progress is not even close to being enough either- he should be handing over the criminals he is harbouring in his Church to the authorities in all the countries where they have committed their crimes, along with all the evidence and information the Church has on each on and every case.
Anything less is neither just nor moral and lacks all credibility.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Eldorion on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:29 pm

Obviously I'd like to see that too but if Frank tries to do that, especially so early in his Papacy, he's going to get knocked flat on his ass by all the people in the Vatican whom he'd be threatening. Needless to say that would make it harder for him to do good in the future and would give ammunition to those who are opposed to increased transparency for the Church.
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:43 pm

''And his choice of the name Francis seems to point to that approach-- going outside the established power structures of the church to work with real people rather than picking fights within. I'm hopeful, but only time will tell'' Dave

I agree

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:49 pm

And in the meantime pedophile priests walk free to offend again unfettered and supported by their Church.
Sorry I find that unacceptable no matter how nice or well intentioned a guy he is- he has to do more than be nice.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:55 pm

well pedos walk about unfettered in tv studios, does that mean no more telly? Suspect

talking of which that Castro reptile hanged himself in prison, yeah right, I reckon he was 'helped'.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:03 am

well pedos walk about unfettered in tv studios, does that mean no more telly?- Figg

And now they walk in court rooms where they are judged and sentenced if found guilty- shouldnt guilty priests be doing the same?

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:54 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:well pedos walk about unfettered in tv studios, does that mean no more telly?- Figg

And now they walk in court rooms where they are judged and sentenced if found guilty- shouldnt guilty priests be doing the same?
Wait, surely there have been many priests who've been convicted of sex crimes?  I'm disturbed that apparently not all of them were defrocked, in the same way that I'd be disturbed if a TV personality were convicted and not fired. High profile authorities, abuse of power, betrayal of trust.... There are more similarities than difference here, I'm thinking.
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:00 am

There are those have been convicted- but not because the Church did the right thing and handed them and all the info over to authorities.
The BBC are just as guilty- but at least they dont threaten others with the pains of hell for doing the same thing- they might be guilty but not also of hypocrisy.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Eldorion on Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:55 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:And in the meantime pedophile priests walk free to offend again unfettered and supported by their Church.
Sorry I find that unacceptable no matter how nice or well intentioned a guy he is- he has to do more than be nice.
I think we all find it unacceptable, but I'm trying to be realistic about what one person can do, especially in the short term.  I'm not saying Francis is the greatest Pope ever -- we'll have to wait until he's done more to judge his legacy -- but I'm glad we don't have another Benedict XVI.

Of course, if Francis fails to follow through on any of this during the rest of his Papacy, then I will join the condemnation of him for that.
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by halfwise on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:59 am

the more I think about it, the most likely course he'll take is to quietly defrock guilty priests but otherwise offer amnesty by not turning over records, and take steps to prevent the culture of silence in the future. We may see new transgressions offered up to local police, but old ones will simply be divested from the church. It will only go a small way towards correcting old wrongs but cause the smallest internal damage, with the message passed that nothing new will be tolerated.

Not the ideal, but the best we can likely expect.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:17 am

Not ideal at all- he would be covering up crimes and perverting the course of justice if that's the approach he takes.
And if one of these perverts he quietly defrocks and lets go commits another offense he would be partly guilty and should be held responsible for his part in it.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by David H on Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:14 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Not ideal at all- he would be covering up crimes and perverting the course of justice if that's the approach he takes.
....which would put him on par with most other heads of state in this world. Just sayin'....
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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:36 am

Yeah well Id like to see them in court too- but at least heads of state dont get their position by claiming an invisible super being told them they could have it and that they are outside of all law except the law they make up.

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Re: Religous debates and questions [2]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:50 pm

thing is he has up to now made a lot of drastic changes, (in Vatican terms) he has made some symbolic gestures which have transgressed the hierarchy and tradition, he also seems a determined and strong willed man. he has only been Pope a short time, he knows the world wants him to sort out two major scandals, the pedo scandal and the financial scandal, just give him time to put his people in places of power, then he can move to eradicate abuse and corruption. If he just blunders in now a lot of things will be hidden forever and go underground, he needs to first sack all the old cronies loosen their grip on power and secrets, and I am sure he will clean up the Vaticans act, eventually. He knows the Church was on the point of collapse with the last Pope, he knows the eyes of the world are on him, he is intelligent enough to listen and reform.

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