Galadriel and her husband

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Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:52 pm

Hello again, I intend to write an external history of Galadriel and Celeborn in the coming years. Why here? Well those of you at Forumshire who don't care are not afraid to say so, or entirely ignore a thread, and I like that.

Why? Well the history is kind of confusing, and maybe putting the external texts 'all in one place' and in some chronological order can help one imagine his or her own internal version of the history of Galadriel and Celeborn -- in other words, it might help with weeding out the external complexities in order to imagine 'what really happened' -- if 'you' want to weed that is.

And of course as always, if whatever I write in these pale pages is true, then it can be likewise relied upon. If you are not a reader of The History of Middle-Earth series, some details will no doubt amuse or shock you, just as with my award winning [or so I assume] thread on Glorfindel.

I do not intend to cover every detail, but just enough to make me look good.

[however I cannot be held responsible for mistakes or silent injections of my own personal biases or opinions -- well I can actually, but I will not necessarily give much heed to anyone noticing. I assume no one will check the accuracy of anything I write, so if you do, please be aware that I made no such prior assumption]

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1941

The year Galadriel was 'born'. That's well after a version of The Silmarillion existed, and I know this because lesser numbers usually indicate an earlier date, like Qenta Noldorinwa [1930], and Quenta Silmarillion [mid to later 1930s]. Galadriel first arose during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, seemingly on paper in this hard to read sentence...

'[?Lord] of Galadrim [?and ?a] Lady and ... [?went] to White Council.'
And in some notes:

Lord and Lady clad in white, with white hair. Piercing eyes like a lance in starlight. Lord says he knows their quest but won't speak of it. They speak [of] Gandalf. Song of Elves. (...).
So Galadriel first had white hair, which was still the case in the first actual narratives. Another rejected note was written 'at some time later' against Haldir's words: 'They bring me a message from the Lord and Lady of the Galadrim'.

'Lord? If Galadriel is alone and is wife of Elrond.'
That just blew your mind, didn't it.

Plus, I note this note contains the name Galadriel.

In the text, first written in pencil but written over in ink, at: 'Here dwell Keleborn and Galadriel...' are the pencilled names Tar and Finduilas [struck out] and then Aran and Rhien. And Galdaran and Galdrin (perhaps miswritten for Galdrien) also occur at this time.

Tolkien continues in 'roughly written ink' but seemingly changes the names further: Galathir 'Tree-lord' Galadhrien 'Tree-lady'. Then we have the name of the Lady in the concluding text as Galdrien and Galadrien, with pencilled correction in some cases to Galadriel. Galadriel also belongs with the overwritten text, which makes sense.

Hmm. I almost understood that this time.

A name meaning 'Tree-lady' is interesting at this time, as much later Tolkien will note [published in Unfinished Tales] that aided by the fact that the name Celeborn appeared to contain a tree-word, Galadriel's name became associated with trees, and: '... outside Lorien among those whose memories of the ancient days and Galadriel's history had grown dim her name was often altered to Galadhriel. Not in Lorien itself.'

This alteration leaves us with galadh [galath with voiced -th-] 'tree' as in Galadhrim 'Tree people'


Anyway, I'm sure that is enough for now. Possibly for ever. But if I ever again remember I started this, I just might continue. Anyone is free to comment or correct, of course, or to finish the rest.



Spoiler alert: Galadriel does not end up marrying Elrond.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:03 pm

A brilliant mix of information and wit as always Elthir. I for one will be eagerly awaiting more.

Does the mention of being the wife of Elrond date for 1941 as well? And if so presumably that means the creation of Elrond's family, sons and what happened to his wife are all much later.

Did Tolkien work out Elrond first and so alter the releationship with Galadriel, or did he come up with a rough idea of Galadriel and Celeborn first thus negating the need for a connection in marriage to Elrond?

{{and if you want an award nomination this year I expect answers!}}}

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:08 pm

Interesting stuff, Elthir, and I say that with full sincerity. Smile I've read the "Galadriel and Celeborn" section of Unfinished Tales several times but still find it rather befuddling. That might be in part because the volumes relating to LOTR were the one part of The History of Middle-earth that I never got around to buying.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:55 pm

Thanks Eldo and Petty! I'll try...

Does the mention of being the wife of Elrond date for 1941 as well? And if so presumably that means the creation of Elrond's family, sons and what happened to his wife are all much later.
With respect to the date, that's how I interpret things Petty, yes.

'Some time later' is a bit vague, and the ever so slightly more detailed date for these texts is 'towards the end of 1941' [Hammond And Scull], but to me it seems that Tolkien ended up with the name Galadriel as he was writing out the chapter, and he doesn't appear to take Celeborn out [or that is, the 'Lord' along with the Lady, out] of the tale as he continues it.

My take is that JRRT, perhaps briefly, considered Galadriel as being alone here in Lorien, her husband being Elrond back in Imladris. Again, Tolkien doesn't seem to take this up in the actual narrative, but it's reasonable to think that the details of Elrond's family were 'fluid enough' at this point. That said I can't recall, at the moment, the more detailed external history with Elrond.

Did Tolkien work out Elrond first and so alter the releationship with Galadriel, or did he come up with a rough idea of Galadriel and Celeborn first thus negating the need for a connection in marriage to Elrond?
Hmm, there goes my nomination perhaps; to say something that just popped into my head for no reason, anyway.

I would have to investigate Elrond's history further. I might though. In any case 'Elrond' appears much earlier than Galadriel in an external sense, before The Lord of the Rings of course. And with Galadriel just 'born', as it appears, we can hardly have 'the daughter of Galadriel' as Elrond's wife in the earlier tales -- to state the seemingly obvious that nobody needed to hear.

My real problem at the moment is external: I have to go get the oil changed in my car. Horse berries! But I want to better investigate Elrond now!

Please excuse my failure to have at the ready, a comparative history of Elrond and family.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:35 pm

this was the first I heard that Galadriel was actually a creation of the LoTR, then the Silmarillion was revised to include her. Helps explain why her history is so confused. I wonder what other characters LoTR gave birth to that had to be added into earlier ages? Sauron maybe? Shocked 

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:58 pm

Sauron already existed in the form of Thu the Necromancer in the story of Beren and Luthien. Interestingly, way back in the original version of this story in The Book of Lost Tales, the role eventually filled by Thu/Sauron was filled by Tevildo, lord of the cats, who was ... a cat. Who got chased up a tree by Huan the hound of Valinor. Seriously.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:34 pm

So the Necromancer existed before the name Sauron. Hmm.  The Hobbit of course used the Necromancer with later allusions in LoTR that nobody knew for sure he was Sauron until Gandalf visited.  Makes me think the name Sauron was added into the Silmarillion work after Tolkien started work on LoTR.

Edit: this of course should be found in the History of Middle Earth which I have not read.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:17 pm

Thanks for the answers Elthir, now go study up on Elrond, I want the complete picture mind! Nod 

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:53 pm

Turns out I didn't need an oil change. New car and not enough miles. Some laughter [but not mean] and smiles from those within earshot of the explanation I received, which was: go home, return much later at 5,000 miles.

It seems I don't know much about engines. At least I wasn't behorsed. Well, there is Elrond related lore waiting!

But good to see other matters arising while I was out!
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:07 pm

Yeah, the 3,000 mile oil change went out a decade ago at least. But it's part of childhood mythology.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:34 pm

Elthir wrote:Turns out I didn't need an oil change. New car and not enough miles. Some laughter [but not mean] and smiles from those within earshot of the explanation I received, which was: go home, return much later at 5,000 miles.

It seems I don't know much about engines. At least I wasn't behorsed. Well, there is Elrond related lore waiting!

But good to see other matters arising while I was out!
yes knowing when to change oil in cars is somewhat of a grey area

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:05 am

{{{ Figgy! Evil or Very Mad }}} 

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:59 am

Mrs Figg wrote: yes knowing when to change oil in cars is somewhat of a grey area
My car is grey too Mrs Figg, so very apt. It might even be shadow-grey, although that's a horse-colour.


Appendix A

Nos Elrond or 'House, clan, family' of Elrond

I actually did not stumble upon much commentary here, but surprisingly I seem to have found a year in which the Sons of Elrond first appear in the texts: 1946, thus after the initial writing about Lothlorien and Galadriel, and after various versions of The Council of Elrond. Their names [not noted in the first reference to Elrond's sons] are Elboron and Elbereth in an early text.

Yes Elbereth. I don't know what Tolkien was thinking at this time, but at least in the Etymologies at one point, Elbereth was also an 'Ilkorin' name that contained bereth 'valor', although at some point this name was struck out [see base BER-]. For more on this and the 'Noldorin' name of Varda, see Etymologies.

From a textual standpoint 'Finduilas' [daughter of Elrond] appears to arrive even later, and Celebrian daughter of Galadriel is a fairly late addition too. It looks like the notion of Aragorn wedding Arwen was itself a relatively late idea, with Eowyn being an earlier 'love interest' for Trotter/Strider. That much I remembered, but it's good to confirm.

Of course Elrond goes back to texts written before The Lord of the Rings, but I went to sleep during my investigation, deeming this much would be enough to secure my place in history as a sleepy, lazy investigator of things.


sidenote: Qenta Noldorinwa is spelled correctly in my initial post. I was going to make a sheep related pun here, about a missing u, but it's not needed [the u isn't needed for this name, the pun is necessary].

Oh and happy birthday Petty!
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:07 pm

Thanks Elthir! If I wasnt already so drunk that would probably all be very interesting- I shall have to come back to it, when I start to regain my ability to focus (sometime about the weekend I should imagine drunken )

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Arafain... the Noldo?

Post by Elthir on Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:03 pm

Part Two

Arafain the possible Noldorin Elf and Galadriel's growing stature

'It is seen that it was while my father was writing the 'Lothlorien' story ab initio that the Lady of Lothlorien emerged (p. 233); and it is also seen that the figure of Galadriel (Rhien, Galadrien) as a great power in Middle-earth was deepened and extended as he wrote. In his sketch of his ideas, written down after the story had reached Caras Galadon, as the name Galdaran shows (note 9), the mirror belongs to the Lord (here called King).

Christopher Tolkien, The Treason of Isengard
In a successor text to that in which the names Keleborn and Galadriel first appear, the name Arafain becomes a brief substitution for Keleborn.

Galadriel and Arafain/Keleborn still have white hair 'though this was early changed to make Galadriel's hair golden'. Galadriel's Ring is called 'The Ring of Earth'. And with respect to clan, it seems that even Celeborn might have been originally a Noldorin exile!

'The lord and lady of Lothlorien [of the Galadrim] are accounted wise beyond the measure [even] of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas. For we have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the Sun was young.'
This passage was written again later, and the slight changes are noted by me [in the brackets]. Christopher Tolkien notes that this 'strongly suggests' that his father imagined both Galadriel and Celeborn to be Exiled Noldor who did not return West at the end of the First Age. And there is an addition here:

'... and the sun was young. And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat.'
This was not taken up into a following typescript, though it was entered onto it in manuscript, '... and no doubt belongs to a later time. For the coming of Melian to Middle-earth in a very remote age of the world see IV. 264, V. 111.'

Very interesting! This passage ['are accounted wise' and so on] will change again before we get to the published form, but for now, one wonders when this addition was added. For that I will jump to a different text, Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age...

... in which Melian is merely mentioned in a rejected passage of OTROP however! Also, OTROP wasn't really looked at in detail by Christopher Tolkien in HME itself, so what I will be really saying is: I don't know when it was added exactly, even if OTROP has any real connection here. Anyway I should probably hold that for the third part, as that mist will be confusingly mixed with other texts.

Hmm, but I set out to try to clarify things. Oh well.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:49 pm

Took me a minute to figure out OTROP wasn't some minor comical Norse god.

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Celeborn the Silvan Lord

Post by Elthir on Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:39 pm

LOL! Yes OTROP stands for 'Of The Rings Of Power [And The Third Age]', while SIDAG stands for 'Shadofwax Is Described As Grey'. Sorry for the confusion. I've no certain idea what LOL stands for however [or INCIWLOLSFH].

The next section is turning out to be confusing as far as chronological developement, but I believe I have made strides with respect to this period, or that is, a few good enough guesses. The 'problem' is that there is at least one phase of further development from the drafts [those texts noted in HME] to the final, published text, and I'm not sure it's possible to exactly date when Tolkien made these revisions.

Before he published the book is a safe guess Wink 

Anyway I think I can very generally add that the notion of Celeborn as a Sindarin Elf entered by the writing of the Appendices. But according to Christopher Tolkien we have a phase in which his father seems to have thought of Celeborn as a Nandorin Elf -- keeping in mind that, looking back, we know that there was an early implication, at least, of him being Noldorin. So when did the 'Silvan' phase enter? I don't know, but sometime between these ideas it would appear.

That's still a chronology of sorts Razz 

What we do know is that the published text [Galadriel's 'ere the Fall of Gondolin' description] -- a text that seems to go hand in hand with Celeborn the Nandorin Elf and was quoted by Christopher Tolkien in Unfinished Tales as seeming evidence to raise the notion -- was not revised when Celeborn 'became' Sindarin. In fact 'ere the Fall of Gondolin' [and so on] was not revised for the second edition either, and so remains, in my opinion, a bit of an 'internal oddity' of some measure.

In other words, Celeborn is certainly Sindarin when Tolkien publishes Appendix B [first edition], but JRRT never revises Galadriel's implication that she came from Beleriand before the Fall of Nargothrond and met Celeborn already in his realm in Lorien. Celeborn, once he becomes a Sindarin Elf in Tolkien's imagination, must also come from Beleriand [at last at some point], and according to the much later The Road Goes Ever On, he indeed passes into Eriador with Galadriel, after the Fall of Morgoth however.

I think Tolkien forgot to revise Galadriel's statement in The Lord of the Rings, and twice: both when Celeborn became a Sinda [before the first edition was published], and again when the second edition gave him the opportunity. Or perhaps he thought it was vague enough to leave alone, I don't know.

This sentence [Galadriel's 'ere the fall of Nargothrond' sentence] does seem to have some earlier versions in the drafts for OTROP. Again I can't date these except to say 'before OTROP seems to have been in existence as a somewhat completed text', which isn't very specific obviously -- so all I can do is consider the final form used in publication as later than the forms seen in OTROP.

I'll post the variations later, and in them it will be seen that Tolkien is trying to work out a bit of Galadriel's history as well, not surprisingly.

Some readers think that besides the 'ere the fall of Nargothrond' passage there might be more passages that suggest Celeborn is a Nandorin Elf; one of them being his remark to Legolas about his 'kin' in Mirkwood, for example, which remains in the final account.

I could delve into these too, as another appendix, but in the end whether all were part of this conception or not, we still end up with Christopher Tolkien's speculation [again, based on at least Galadriel's remark] that there is a Nandorin phase.


Anyway, please imagine all my existing or potential 'appendices' as appearing after the posts that deal with Galadriel or her husband more specifically.

In other words, Appendix A: Nos Elrond, is out of order.


Last edited by Elthir on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:19 pm

Could Sindarin Celeborn not have come from Beleriand first, set up Lorien to dwell in and then Galadriel met him there? And in between hm arriving and her arriving he had a thing with a Nandorin elf and so could claim kinship years later to those descendents in Mirkwood.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by David H on Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:22 pm

Elthir wrote:...while SIDAG stands for 'Shadofwax Is Described As Grey'
...not to be confused with SIDAAG
(which stands for "Shadowfax Is Described as Appearing Grey")
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:56 pm

SIDAAG sounds more like a Norse god. Nod 

Petty Tyrant wrote:Could Sindarin Celeborn not have come from Beleriand first, set up Lorien to dwell in and then Galadriel met him there? And in between hm arriving and her arriving he had a thing with a Nandorin elf and so could claim kinship years later to those descendents in Mirkwood.
Elves don't fool around when they're young. Evil or Very Mad
(maybe with humans - those relationships are doomed to be short lived anyway. Whoo-hoo! What a Face )

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:20 pm

David H wrote: ...not to be confused with SIDAAG (which stands for "Shadowfax Is Described as Appearing Grey")
Exactly David. No one should confuse this as Tolkien himself didn't describe that Shadowfax appears grey. JRRT did not write, for example: 'And Gandalf too, was now riding on his tall grey [appearing] horse, all clad in white with a great mantle of blue and silver over all...' [Homeward Bound] Nor: 'Then Círdan led them to the Havens, and there was a white ship lying, and upon the quay beside a great grey [appearing] horse stood a figure robed all in white awaiting them.' [The Grey Appearing Havens]

So yes, don't be confused by SIDAAG, I agree.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:24 pm

Ooo....SNAP!

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:30 pm

LOL! There is also SIDASG, Shadowfax: 'having shadow-grey mane (and coat)'

Not SIDAASG Wink 
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by RA on Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:50 pm

Halfwise wrote:(maybe with humans - those relationships are doomed to be short lived anyway. Whoo-hoo! What a Face  )
Very Happy

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Orwell on Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:14 am

Mrs Figg wrote:yes knowing when to change oil in cars is somewhat of a grey area
Perhaps it's a silver area here on this particularly Elthirean thread Suspect --- possibly ethereally* so.  Nod



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