Galadriel and her husband

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:12 pm

Halfwise: you're correct about my frustration, although since it's Tolkien it's still very different from other frustrations, like when I'm behorsed during a meeting at work and have to go outside and chew some grass. Why can't behorsings tell you when they are coming!?! Very frustrating and inconvenient.

Mrs Figg: your post was not daft at all

Halfwise and Mrs Figg:

Some years ago now I completed a 'book version' of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, using as much of Tolkien's actual wording that I could, but obviously making many subjective decisions [my first priority being not to contradict anything JRRT himself published, nor contradict anything in CJRT's constructed Silmarillion] about what to weed out.

I also made a copy in which I note [inserted into the text itself in brackets like this] the source of every passage, and I note every change of word, even minor, that I made to connect different texts. Why? Who knows. I think I had then a silly thought of sending it off to the Tolkien Estate, just to see what any reaction would be, and I wanted them to see the 'bones' of the final version in every detail. Silly.

Plus I probably weeded a lot more than others might: if something was 'problematic' in some way [to my mind], sometimes it seemed best to leave it out.

And where these papers are now however, I'm actually not sure!


And Petty, yes I'm going with B!
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:39 pm

And you guys said I was the biggest tease on the forum. Evil or Very Mad You'd better start digging around in you attic this weekend, Elthir!
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:49 pm

LOL

Yes, after all that work [well it wasn't that much, and it was fun work anyway], now that I think about it, this stuff might even be gone, due to a cleaning at some point. Wouldn't be the first time I threw out old papers I should have kept.

Not in the attic though, that's where I keep the ravens for the outgoing mail.

plus I could have eaten several pages when behorsed
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:16 pm

It's said how much great stuff was lost in the pre-electronic era. I actually keep an old computer around which predated CD and flash drives, meaning I have no way to get stuff off it now except a massive internet transfer. Someday I'll pull it out of the box, fire it up, and root through it to see what's worth saving. I know there's A LOT.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:23 pm

cheers  my first reaction

bounce  my second reaction. find it! find it! find it!

Very Happy 


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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:32 pm

My original feeling was that out of humanitarian reasons we should just ask him to scan the pages, but I think he may want an electronic record, which means he may end up just typing the whole thing again anyway.

Then we could edit out those pesky brackets. Nod 

Actually I think Christopher Tolkien's technique of using endnotes is nice. I'm sure it's quite publishable, Elthir - in one of the Tolkien journals.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:38 pm

wow this is amazing. I really hope you find it Elthir.

I have a lot of old cassette tapes with no way of listening to them, and floppy discs, museum pieces

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:52 pm

I think someone is very comfy in their Tower of Lore and determined not to lose it Nod 

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:00 pm

It's not easy to fool Pettytyrant Very Happy 

Can Elthir [me] scan? Don't know how. Someone gave me one years ago. Never used it.

Sell phone? Don't own one. Can't sell one.

Computing machine? Own one, barely know how to use it.

Typing skills? Minimal.

Visual description? Handsome my mother said so once when I was little


If I find it, it it sill lives, I might type out 'some' of it. But keep in mind it's nothing you haven't read before, it's just in my selective order.

Plus it isn't that fair to Tolkien really. Different texts, some just unfinished notes stitched together with fully finished texts written in a specific style.

Plus copyright!
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:04 pm

bounce  bugger copyright

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:07 pm

Twisted Evil 

I think once you find it you won't be able to stop dorking around with it once you get it back in print.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:14 pm

Elthir wrote: Plus it isn't that fair to Tolkien really. Different texts, some just unfinished notes stitched together with fully finished texts written in a specific style.
By the way, that's a comment on what I did and only what I did. I didn't try to be creative with respect to different styles in different texts. I just stuck to what I had and adjusted a few things, sometimes one word, to help with transition.

Me is no writer, after awl.




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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:27 pm

Me is no writer, after awl.- Elthir

You cant fool us Elthir! Mad 

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ANRN

Post by Elthir on Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:46 am

Amroth and Nimrodel Related Notes

Or 'late conceptions of the movements of Galadriel' and her husband


These notes published in Unfinished Tales certainly date to after 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', in which Amroth was Galadriel's son. Christopher Tolkien remarks about the first note ['first' as in, in the order he presents them]:

'This account is of course greatly at variance with that contained in 'Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn'. Amroth is no longer the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, but of Amdir, a prince of Sindarin origin. The older story of the relations of Galadriel and Celeborn with Eregion seem to have been modified in many important respects, but how much of it would have been retained in any fully written narrative cannot be said.'
In my narrative anyway, not much is retained from the older version outside of 'filler' material! I didn't find my texts yet (which may be due to not looking for them yet) but I recall that much at least. In the first note, which I'll call ANRN1 [Amroth Nimrodel Related Note 1]...

... the Noldor pass through Moria after the destruction of Eregion in 1697 SA, and Celeborn went to Lorien to fortify it against any attempts by Sauron to cross the Anduin. When Sauron withdrew to Mordor Celeborn 'rejoined Galadriel in Lindon.'

Wait what? Celeborn had never gone to Lorien in the SA in the older tale, and how did Galadriel get in Lindon? In the older tale she was ousted from power and in Lorien before Sauron even came with war, and received Nenya while there [thus Nenya was out of Eregion when Celebrimbor gave it to her at this point].

We know -- at least from the older tale -- that Celebrimbor and Galadriel decided that the Three shoud be taken out of Eregion, so now, did Tolkien imagine that all Three went to Lindon with Nenya on Galadriel's finger? In other words, did she pass out of Eregion to Lindon with the Three before Sauron even got there?

I don't know. Even that speculation is further questioned by 'a writing contemporary with this' in which both Galadriel and Celeborn, at this time: 'passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien'.

Which is the later idea I can't tell. If it's possible to tell, based on something that hasn't occurred within my skull yet, a golden button to anyone who can figure this out.

And an especially shiny golden button too.


Unfortunately in these later notes there is little enough about the movements of these characters. If one takes the latter as true for example, after 'many years' Galadriel and Celeborn seemingly leave Lorien, as in ANRN3 it is said that: 'To Lorien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance.' And when it was only Celeborn going to Lorien after Eregion's fall, he left after Sauron withdrew to Mordor.

So Galadriel and Celeborn go [or Celeborn goes] to Lorien after Eregion's fall, remain[s] there for a time, and both go twice to Lorien before this age ends. Where are they when not in Lorien? Eregion is gone, so Imladris or Lindon I guess [Belfalas seems out to me at this point], with maybe Lindon getting more weight considering the former text where Celeborn joined Galadriel in Lindon, and considering that Celeborn was vaguely noted as dwelling in Lindon in the second, revised edition of Appendix B.

ANRN2 deals with the Third Age, where Galadriel, becoming filled with foreboding, goes to Lorien with Celeborn and stayed 'long with Amroth' [Amdir his father is now dead, perishing at the Last Alliance. ANRN3 noted that when the shadow of Sauron's recovery arose, Celeborn and Galadriel dwelt in Lorien 'for a long time']. They then take 'long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the North' and then pass 'over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years.' Keeping in mind that Elrond had wedded Celebrian in TA 109.

And of course it was not until the disaster in Moria [1980 TA. Nimrodel fled distraught in 1981 TA where Amroth found her under the eaves of Fangorn], and the sorrows of Lorien and Amroth's death, that Galadriel and Celeborn 'took up their permanent abode in Lorien, and its government.'

If you think about it, and even if you don't, that's almost 2,000 years into the Third Age before Galadriel takes up the rule of Lorien. With her husband.


I once tried to place the long journeys of enquiry mentioned here, into the tale of years, assuming that they would be made in a period of 'relative' peace, to more easily allow such travel. I came up with a possibility, but can't find those notes at the moment. It was quite speculative anyway.

Another question might be: if employing these later notes, when did Lorien become golden with mallorn-trees if Galadriel was the one to get them to grow there?
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:28 am

If just reading LotR one gets the impression Galadriel was in Lorien as a permanent fixture for at least an Age. I remember being shocked and dismayed to find her galloping around Middle Earth in UT like a rootless renter. I would like to believe the mallorn trees were planted by Galadriel early on in her wanderings, then they came into their own when she came back and established herself.

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the vanishing ban

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:20 am

As noted, Tolkien explained: 'The Exiles were allowed to return -- save for a few chief actors in the Rebellion of whom at the time of the L. R. only Galadriel remained.' in letter to Mr Rang dated August 1967. And again, this seems in accord with Galadriel's ban in The Road Goes Ever On, published in 1967. It is maybe interesting to also note again, that at some point Tolkien revised the text The Elessar [itself tentatively dated to the later 1950s] to introduce Galadriel's ban.


But in January 1971 [letter 320] Tolkien wrote:

'I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel (...) I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the Rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians) At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the ring for herself.'
Galadriel is still a leader here, and still pardoned because of her resistance to the One in the Third Age, implying she was not pardoned before that I think. In RGEO Galadriel had 'replied proudly' that she had no wish to return, despite being banned from return, so it seems a bit odd [to me] to say she 'proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return', again, especially if she was not pardoned yet.

In The Shibboleth of Feanor dated 1968 or later (by the way the text described as a late etymological discussion [or something like that] and cited in Unfinished Tales is from The Shibboleth of Feanor, although it's not called that in Unfinished Tales if I recall correctly):

'Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth forever.'
Here Galadriel seems to refuse the pardon of the Valar, as if she is not banned. Incidentally here she 'fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin' too, so now Galadriel participates at the events of Swanhaven. On a typescript of The Annals of Aman Tolkien at some point wrote a marginal note against the passage describing the involvement of the second host in the fighting:

'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.'
In the Shibboleth text and in this marginal note to Annals of Aman [and in certain other late sources] Celeborn also becomes a Telerin Elf of Aman, not a Sinda of Beleriand. I assume this marginal note to AAm was written sometime after 1967, given what RGEO had said about Celeborn being Sindarin.

Wait... Finrod fought at Swanhaven too?

Galadriel 'unstained'

In the last month of Tolkien's life, in a story 'adumbrated but never told' in a partly illegible note, Tolkien really changed his mind about Nerwen's history. Here Tolkien emphasized the commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor 'the equal if unlike endowments of Feanor.'

Galadriel was in every way opposed to Feanor, but wished to depart Valinor to go to Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents, and felt confined in the tutelage of Aman. Manwe knew of her design to leave and had not forbidden her, but neither had he given her formal leave to depart. So Galadriel ponders the ships of the Teleri and goes to Swanhaven, where she meets Celeborn, who is here again a Telerin prince, and Galadriel's close kinsman.

Together they plan to build a ship, and they were about to seek leave from the Valar when the light of the Trees was destroyed. In Feanor's revolt Galadriel has no part, and 'she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualonde' and Celeborn's ship was saved. They sail without waiting for Manwe's leave, which would 'undoubtedly have been witheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return.'

They reach Middle-earth, are welcomed with joy, but judged the war with Morgoth to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid. With a different plan Galadriel and Celeborn depart over Ered Lindon 'before the end of the First Age' and when they received the permission of the Valar to return they rejected it.

In a letter to Lord Halsbury dated 4, August 1973, Tolkien says that he meant right away to deal with Galadriel, and with the question of Elvish child-bearing and...

'Galadriel was 'unstained': she had committed no evil deeds, She was an enemy of Feanor. She did not reach Middle-earth with the other Noldor, but independently. Her reasons for desiring to go to Middle-earth were legitimate, and she would have been permitted to depart, but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Feanor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on emigration.'
Of course Galadriel is now certainly not a leader of the Rebellion, and wasn't even part of it, and so can hardly be banned for being a leader. Christopher Tolkien writes that this story is 'profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere' and notes that 'It arose from 'philosophical' (rather than 'historical') considerations'.

For myself I wonder why he puts it like this. Was there something specific on the note maybe, or is it his opinion due to the fact that the history is so different? In any case CJRT continues:

'That it would have entailed a good deal of alteration in the narrative of The Silmarillion is evident; but that my father no doubt intended to do. It may be noted here that Galadriel did not appear in the original story of the rebellion and flight of the Noldor, which existed long before she did; and also, of course, that after her entry into the stories of the First Age her actions could still be transformed radically, since The Silmarillion had not been published. The book as published was however formed from completed narratives, and I could not take into account merely projected revisions.'
Okay but this puzzles me a bit. Tolkien had published The Road Goes Ever On if not the Silmarillion, and why not mention this here? Directly after this, Christopher Tolkien writes:

'On the other hand, the making of Celeborn into a Telerin Elf of Aman contradicts not only statements in The Silmarillion, but also those cited already (p. 228) from The Road Goes Ever On and Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings, where Celeborn is a Sindarin Elf of Beleriand.'
But why note this contradiction with already published accounts with respect to Celeborn, but not with Galadriel, at least here? I mean the passage from RGEO on Galadriel's ban is cited earlier in this chapter, and also the letter of 1967 too, but I would think it should be especially pertinent to note this again at this point, after stating that Galadriel's actions could be radically transformed because the Silmarillion itself had yet to be published, and stating that his father intended to make these alterations.

In The Peoples of Middle-Earth Christopher Tolkien noted Tolkien himself saying that late in life his memory was not retentive. And for example, with respect to a late text about Celebrimbor, Christopher Tolkien states that had his father remembered that he had already published Celebrimbor as a Feanorean [second edition], surely he would have abided by the published text.

I agree. But how do we know Tolkien did not merely forget what he had already published about Galadriel here, versus what he had simply written about her somewhere? In my opinion, this late text on Galadriel and Celeborn could have arisen not simply due to philosophical concerns, but hand in hand with the possibility that Tolkien thought the history of Galadriel's role in the rebellion had no where been published yet, and thus could be radically transformed.

Whatever the case in Tolkien's mind, RGEO was already on public bookshelves. And incidentally, I wonder, for example, within the conception that Galadriel went to Swanhaven before the batle there even began, did Tolkien still imagine that Finrod fought with her?

Anyway, other arguable considerations with respect to this late text (besides contradictions with Galadriel and the Rebellion, and the status of Celeborn as a Sindarin Elf) might be A) the close kinship between Celeborn and Galadriel. And B) the question of why Celeborn, if he is truly a Teler from Aman, did not return with Galadriel when she left Middle-earth with Elrond and others, as is reported in The Lord of the Rings, where Celeborn doesn't seem all that happy about being parted from his wife, even for a while.

My opinion: forget all this and give me Galadriel the penitent rebel!

But you guessed that already, I bet Very Happy
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letter opener part two

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:34 pm

I last left off with letter 236, 1961. Onward.

Letter 246, drafts. From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar, 1963:

'In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.'
Letter 247, 1963, to Colonel Worskett: Tolkien notes that the only major characters in The Lord of the Rings who appear in the legends of the earlier ages are Elrond and Galadriel [Gandalf only in passing mention]. Later Tolkien mentions the Ents, and notes that:
'But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]). The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Orome, but the wives to Yavanna.'
Letter 276, to Richard Plotz, 1965: Tolkien reveals to this person that there is unpublished matter about his world, including the history of Celeborn and Galadriel. This is interesting, as it comes before the publication of RGEO in any case.

Letter 297, Drafts for Mr. Rang, 1967: Tolkien refers to Galadriel's lament to point out the Elvish word lassi 'leaves'. Later he notes Galadriel as not allowed to return West, being one of the chief actors in the Rebellion; and so on about her lament, as already cited in this thread.

Letter 320 to Ruth Austin, 1971: Tolkien reacts to comments made about Galadriel, saying that he thinks it is true that he owes much of this character to Christian and Catholic imagination about Mary, but that Galadriel was a penitent, and in her youth a leader in the Rebellion; and so on as already cited in this thread.

Letter 345 to Meriel Thurston, 1972:

'Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the half-elven who had abandoned her elvish rights. Galadriel ('Glittering garland') is the chief elvish woman mentioned in The Lord of the Rings; her daughter was Celebrian ('Silver queen'). There was also Nimrodel. But I shouldn't really like these names given to heifers or cows. If you care for the Aramund type, I could invent a few female names.'
Laughing 

Letter 347 to Richard Jeffery, 1972:
'Galadriel though beautiful and noble enough in form is not a Q. name, any more than Gil-galad, which contains the S. word galad; and Celeborn is a transl. of the original Telporno; though said to be a kinsman of King Elu Thingol he was so only afar off, for he too came from Valinor.'
Ahem about Celeborn there, but moving on, later in this letter Tolkien notes: *galada < GAL 'grow' intr[ansitive]
'... is not connected in origin with the name Galadriel, but it does occur in Calas Galadhon, Galadhrim. Before I discovered that many readers like you wd. be interested in language-details, I though people would feel dh uncouth, and so wrote d (for ð and dh) in names. But Galadhon, -dhrim is now in text.'
Letter 348 to Catharine Findlay, 1973: Tolkien notes that Galadriel, like all the other names of elvish persons in The Lord of the Rings, is his own invention, and that it is Sindarin in form and means 'Maiden crowned with gleaming hair'.
'It is a secondary name given to her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats.'
Letter 353 to Lord Halsbury, 4 August 1973: Tolkien notes that he meant right away to deal with Galadriel, and with the question of Elvish child-bearing...
'to both of which I have given much thought'
He then describes Galadriel as 'unstained', an enemy of Feanor, and as reaching Middle-earth independently of the other Noldor, and that she would have been permitted to depart Aman (as her reasons for desiring to go to Middle-earth were legitimate), but for the misfortune that she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration, due to Feanor's revolt before she set out. As also already cited in this thread.

And that, I think, is the last letter with Galadriel in it in the book The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien anyway. Anyone recall another? Even perhaps not published in this book. Let me know.


And if anyone actually has one, please give it to me Very Happy
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:14 pm

More fascinating stuff, Elthir.  Thank you for posting all this; I'm only sorry that I can't offer more substantive commentary. Razz I used to spend a fair bit of time puzzling over some of Tolkien's late-life revisions (mostly the stuff in Myths Transformed though) wondering how to make sense of it and to what extent, if any, it could be squared with the earlier works.

I agree about preferring Galadriel the penitent rebel, though.  Later revisions seem too intent on making her flawless.
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changing clans

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:25 pm

Thanks Eldorion! I'm sort of flooding the thread today with stuff.

So here's more Very Happy 

The Celeborn as Telerin idea (so far) can be dated possibly as 'early' as 1968 I think, though it might be interesting to recall too that in early draft writing for The Lord of the Rings, Celeborn might have been a Noldo.

Shibboleth of Feanor (1968*): '... Teleporno of the Teleri, whom she wedded later in Beleriand' (this is referred to in Unfinished Tales, and I count it as really one instance from JRRT).

Perhaps another reference comes from late writing '1968 or later': 'The famous Celebrimbor (...) was a Teler, one of the three Teleri who accompanied Celeborn into exile.' CJRT then refers the reader to Unfinished Tales pp. 231-3.

'Another note' (date?) Númenórean Linear Measures, Unfinished Tales: 'a Linda of Valinor'

Marginal note to the Annals of Aman (date?) 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.'

Letter 347 (1972): '... for he too came from Valinor'

Adumbrated Tale: Christopher Tolkien relates the history from an unfinished text (last month of Tolkien's life): '... there she met Celeborn, who is here again a Telerin prince,...'

Any more?

Celeborn seems to have possibly been thought of as (at various points): Noldo, Nando, Sinda, Avar**, Teler of Aman. That said the official tale for me is Sindarin.

_______________

*The Shibboleth of Feanor is dated by Hammond and Scull as '1968 or later' in their guide, and under entry 'c. 1969 or later' in their chronology, so it would seem that a general 'around this time' is the best we can do here so far.

** Hammond and Scull reveal the following in their guide: '(...) These comments imply that Celeborn could have left Middle-earth with Galadriel if he had wished, and Tolkien's replies to queries from readers seem to confirm this. In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963 he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief.' Hammond And Scull, Reader's Companion

Celeborn 'refused'? Avari 'the Refusers'. But then again, in 1963? Celeborn was 'firmly' Sindarin in the First Edition!

Maybe Tolkien didn't mean Avarin by 'refused' here, but I do note that this seems to speak to why Celeborn remained when Galadriel sailed: A) he had never seen the Blessed Realm and B) loved Middle-earth.

The former can hardly be said of Celeborn the Telerin Elf of Aman, if later imagined as such.


Last edited by Elthir on Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:29 pm

Hey I just found another letter in my last post. Oops!

Laughing
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:06 pm

Elthir wrote:My opinion: forget all this and give me Galadriel the penitent rebel!
Agreed. Nod 

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by David H on Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:40 pm

I've been enjoying reading this, but I don't feel qualified to comment as it has little to do with either horses or colours.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:58 am

Colour coming up next David!

I'll see if I can work a horse in too, but that may be more difficult Smile 
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:12 pm

Was Galadriel's hair yellow, gold, amber, or maize? study
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silver and gold and nos Celeborn

Post by Elthir on Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:21 pm

I'm glad you asked Eldorion!

Nos Celeborn

As noted, in the second edition of The Lord of the Rings Celeborn is a 'kinsman of Thingol' [Appendix B].

Celeborn was [earlier conception] the grandson of Thingol's brother Elmo, the younger brother of Elwe and Olwe. Elmo's son was Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil, Galathil being the father of Nimloth. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, herself a grandaughter of Olwe: '... but not so close as by that in which he [Celeborn] became Olwe's grandson' which is a reference to the very late version in which Celeborn is Tel(e)porno, a Teler from Aman, who sailed with Galadriel to Middle-earth apart from the Rebel Noldor.

Either way, Celeborn was the grandson of one of Thingol's brothers, but I much prefer him as the Sindarin grandson of Elmo.

Silver

The name Celeborn when first devised was intended to mean 'Silver tree'. Celeborn was silver-haired of course, and Celeborn's close kin had tree names when we consider Galadhon as his father, Galathil as his brother, and Nimloth as his niece who bore the same name as the white tree of Numenor.

In late writings however, Tolkien decided that it should mean 'Silver-tall' rather, derived from an adjective orna 'uprising, tall' rather than from the related noun orne 'tree'. And that Celeborn was tall is mentioned in a note to the discussion of Numenorean Linear measures. Here he is a 'Linda of Valinor' and: '... he was held by them to be tall, as his name indicated ('silver-tall')' for the Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'

If forced to choose, today I would probably prefer the tree name. Plus, to my way of thinking, if you have a name meaning 'Silver tree' this could also suggest 'tall' at the same time, even if a secondary sort of suggestion.

I mean trees are tall in any case, often enough.

Anyway within the late scenario of Celeborn the Telerin Elf who lived in Aman, his name was [Telerin] Teleporno, or Telporno according to a late letter [letter 347, December 1972], where Celeborn: '... is a transl. of the orig. name Telporno; though said to be a kinsman of King Elu Thingol he was so only afar off, for he too came from Valinor.'

Since I don't accept this history, as according to my thoughts author-published text takes center stage and top shelf, I imagine that Celeborn was simply named Celeborn in Sindarin, in Beleriand.

golden, shot with silver

In drafts Galadriel's hair was white, then it became golden in The Lord of the Rings, then became, at least according to later texts, golden shot with silver.

'... it was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Feanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Feanor begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor, were unfriends forever.'

JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor
Galadriel's Father name was Artanis 'Noble woman', and her Mother name was Nerwen(de) 'man-maiden'. According to The Shibboleth of Feanor, the name Alatáriel [also Telerin in form] was given to her by 'her lover Teleporno, whom she wedded later in Beleriand'. It was an epesse or 'after-name', and which she chose ['for it was the most beautiful of her names'] to use in Middle-earth, rendered into Sindarin as Galadriel.

Again, since I don't adopt Celeborn's history as a Teler of Aman for my personal Silmarillion, I still imagine that Galadriel received an epesse in Aman, but now in Quenya: Ñaltariel [true Quenya form] or Altariel [Quenyarized form], which was rendered into Sindarin later as Galadriel.

The stem here is ÑAL- 'shine by reflection'; with *ñalatá 'radiance, glittering reflection' (from jewels, glass or polished metals, or water)'

Perhaps a letter might work for me [letter 349, 1973], as here Tolkien notes how Galadriel got her secondary name in her youth: '... she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats.'

In other words, no mention of Celeborn specifically giving the name to her here, at least Very Happy 

In Words, Phrases and Passages, Tolkien looked at the derivation of the name Galadriel [these ideas come before the one I noted above, from The Shibboleth of Feanor]. I can't [or won't bother to] reproduce all the proper diacritics used by Tolkien here, although I do use some of them. Tolkien's thoughts include:

A) Galadriel came from a word galat- 'radiance' GAL- variant of KAL- 'shine' Galadriel's original Quenya name was Q. Altariel(le) meaning 'woman crowned with radiance' 'she was golden-haired unlike most Noldor.' In full galatá-rigelle.

Then...

B) 'Have KAL in Kaltáriel, Caladriel. Cf. Gil-galad = 'radiant star' Gill calad Kalatá-rigelle, but it is interpreted or altered to Galadriel to reflect Galadrim'

Interesting! And next...

C) 'But Galadriel's name and that of her kinsman Gil-galad did not contain the Tree-word; but an old word galatá, glitter, raidiance, alat- 'radiance, radiate' (variant of KAL-, shine) Galadriel's original Quenya name was Altariel(le) (...) In full alatá-rigelle > Q. altáriel, S Caladriel. Gil-galad = radiant star.

Later in the same source...

D) '(...) suggestion: there should be a NGAL 'gleam, sheen' (...) Galadriel's Quenya name would then have the form Naldariel(le) = lady with the gleaming crown, sc. golden head of hair (RIG-, wreath, garland, crown). The Sindarin form would be Galadriel. This was associated with trees after her marriage with Celeborn, especially in Lorien.

E) 'If the original form of Galadriel's name was ñgal(a)tá-rig-el, Quenya would be Ñaltariel and Galadriel would be correct. and only associated with trees in Lorien.'

F) 'no never so associated, but by strangers. ñ > ñ in Quenya, > ñg > g in Sindarin, only vanishes in Telerin. Altarielle is Telerian.

And skipping to the late source, see The Shibboleth of Feanor version above. Also, Christopher Tolkien published this note in Unfinished Tales:

'When Celeborn and Galadriel became the rulers of the Elves of Lorien (who were mainly in origin Silvan Elves and called themselves the Galadhrim) the name Galadriel became associated with trees, an association that was aided by the name of her husband, which also appeared to contain a tree-word; so that outside Lorien among those whose memories of the ancient days and Galadriel's history had grown dim her name was often altered to Galadhriel. Not in Lorien itself.'
And...

Asfaloth

This is the name of a horse.
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