Galadriel and her husband

Page 2 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Nos Galadriel

Post by Elthir on Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:38 pm

For this new and exciting installment I'll note that the chronological order [the order in which I quote or refer to texts] contains guesswork, considering some overlapping dating, and the fact that I make some guesses.

We jump from the early drafts to 'sometime' later, although I think we can generally say we are looking at a somewhat complicated period when Tolkien is 'finishing' The Lord of the Rings [story], working on Of The Rings Of Power, working on the Appendices, returning to his Silmarillion [hoping it will also be published at this time].

And doing all sort of other things, like eating and sleeping.

According to Hammond and Scull [actual Tolkien experts and scholars]: ?Aug 1948 -- ?end of August 1950 seems to include the draft texts of The Tale of Years of the Second Age [as I'll quote from this text below], while a text of OTROP was seemingly in existence in 1948. This doesn't mean the earliest drafts for OTROP are dated 1948 of course, but we don't know much about the history of OTROP so far.

With Nos Galadriel I intend to mean 'family of Galadriel' and I'm trying to make my work seem more believable by giving it an Elvish title. That's Grey Elven. I think the High-elven might be *Nosse Naltariello 'kin of Galadriel', which if correct should mean that there are probably no mistakes in the following post.

And in case you forgot, as I know I did, we had this statement in the early drafts:

'The lord and lady of Lothlorien [of the Galadrim] are accounted wise beyond the measure [even] of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas. For we have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the Sun was young. And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat.'
Keeping in mind that this last part about Melian: '... no doubt belongs to a later time. For the coming of Melian to Middle-earth in a very remote age of the world see IV. 264, V. 111.'

________________________________________________

And so now we come to OTROP. According to Christopher Tolkien: 'in one of the earliest texts of the work Of The Rings Of Power And the Third Age,' his fater wrote:

'A Queen she was and lady of the woodland elves, yet she was herself of the Noldor and had come from Beleriand in the days of the Exile' [subsequently adding] 'For it is said by some that she was a handmaid of Melian the Immortal in the realm of Doriath'
'But striking this out at once' Tolkien substituted: 'For it is said by some that she was the daughter of Felagund the Fair and escaped from Nargothrond in the day of its destruction.'

That possibly blew your mind again, didn't it?

But in the following text this was changed: 'And some have said that she was the daughter of Felagund the Fair and fled from Nargothrond before its fall, and passed over the Mountains into Eriador ere the coming of Fionwe.' And this in turn was revised to: 'For she was the daughter of Felagund the Fair and the elder sister of Gil-galad, though seldom had they met, for ere Nargothrond was made or Felagund was driven from Dorthonion, she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of Fionwe.'

Hmm. Anyway, okay Galadriel is the sister of Gil-galad and daughter of Felagund. Jump to drafts for The Tale of Years of the Second Age ...


'... for Celeborn had to wife the Lady Galadriel of the Noldor, sister of Gil-galad [> sister of Felagund Gil-galad's sire]'
Aother text that might be noted here is the first version of the abandoned Epilogue [Sauron Defeated], where Sam says of Keleborn:

'His time is not yet come. The Lady came to his land and now she is gone; and he has the land still. When he tires of it he can leave it.'
This might be another text where Celeborn is essentially 'Nandorin', not Sindarin yet, with the Lady coming to his land.

In the Tale of Years draft just mentioned, to my mind the fuller entry [not cited here] is a bit ambiguous with respect to Celeborn's status. So also in an early draft text for Appendix F, where 'Lemberin' [> Telerian] is said to be the native tongue of Celeborn, but this 'Lemberin' seems [to me] to generally refer to the Lingering Elves who did not pass Over Sea, and not necessarily only to those who never crossed the Misty Mountains [at least here in this text, although I should probably check other sources regarding Lemberin too, someday].

It is in a typescript 'F4' [Appendix on Languages], which followed a major revision to the languages in 1951, that Celeborn is specifically a Grey-elf, or Sindarin, with the Grey-elves spreading eastward after the Fall of Beleriand and so on:


'Galadriel, too, was of the royal house of Finrod of the Noldor; though Celeborn, her spouse of Lorien, was a Grey-elf, and most of their people were of a woodland race.'
?1950 -- May 1951 In this period Tolkien turns again to the Elder Days, and Galadriel enters the texts of The Annals of Aman and Quenta Silmarillion.

1280 'Thus the children of Finrod, Inglor and Galadriel, were the kin of Thingol Greymantle in Beleriand'

JRRT, Annals of Aman
Christopher Tolkien notes: 'Here appears the important development whereby the princes of the Third House of the Noldor became close kin to Thingol of Doriath'. I note the revision [above in this post] to the draft Tale of Years where Galadriel was the sister of Gil-galad, but then became the sister of Felagund -- who himself was the father of Gil-galad here.

In the Annals and in Quenta Silmarillion [QSI] Galadriel becomes the sister of Inglor Felagund, and both are the children of Finrod. In QSI it is stated that Galadriel's brothers are Inglor 'who afterwards was named Felagund', Orodreth, Angrod, Egnor. This is approaching the later Nos Galadriel that readers know, but not quite, and even in the published form Galadriel appears to be the daughter of Finrod and sister of Felagund:

Publication, first edition

'The Lady Galadriel of the Royal house of Finrod, father of Felagund, Lord of Nargothrond.

Appendix F, published 1955, first edition
And Celeborn is Sindarin as published, and goes to Greenwood according to the first edition! Note too the description of Galadriel here:

'(...) The exiled Noldor dwelt in Lindon, but many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forest far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest. But the wife of Celeborn was Noldorin: Galadriel, sister of Felagund of the House of Finrod.'

JRRT, Appendix B, published 1955, first edition
Thus Galadriel is sister to Felagund, whose father is Finrod. Of course later for the second edition Tolkien would change 'Finrod' to Finarfin and Felagund to Finrod Felagund, and he would also revise that Celeborn went to Greenwood. But wait, the following was published by JRRT too, and at the same time as this description of Celeborn going to Greenwood was published [the following was not revised]:


'For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through the ages we have fought the long defeat.'
But anyway, a good place to stop today, perhaps.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:01 pm

Wow, even more convoluted than in Lost Tales. Christopher Tolkien was clearly trying to spare the already tenuous sanity of his readers by only including passages of several paragraphs.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:12 pm

it certainly exercises the grey matter. study 

_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21901
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:16 pm

:facepalm: 

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:02 pm

Wink 

_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21901
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:53 am

Mrs Figg wrote:it certainly exercises the grey matter. study 
Greyt comment Mrs Figg! That deserves a silver button!

And since it's about Galadhriel and Celeborn, a Silvan medal too Very Happy
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:18 am

very greytful I am sure. cheers 

_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21901
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:40 pm

Good Greycious!
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Norc on Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:44 am

you're writing a fanfic about Galadriel and Celeborn? that i want to read Very Happy
avatar
Norc
Khaleesi

Posts : 18961
Join date : 2011-12-21
Age : 23

http://nimrail.deviantart.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:19 pm

It's got one of those complicated, ever changing plots, Norc.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Norc on Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:33 pm

are u being cheeky?
avatar
Norc
Khaleesi

Posts : 18961
Join date : 2011-12-21
Age : 23

http://nimrail.deviantart.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:00 pm

yes he is Nod 


Sofa 

_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21901
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Galadriel the rebel

Post by Elthir on Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:34 pm

The Rebel

So in published accounts Galadriel is a Noldo, her husband a Sinda, and the reader does not know specifically why Galadriel hadn't passed Over Sea. She seems to think she can, as after her rejection of the One she says: 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel'. But other statements that follow this one seem to suggest Galadriel might not be allowed* West.

She appears to have passed over the Blue Mountains before the fall of Nargothrond, and met Celeborn in Lorien, but the mountains are not actually named, and Celeborn, being Sindarin, must have been in Beleriand as well. At this point anyway, some time in the Second Age Celeborn passed to the south of Greenwood [again, this will change for the second edition of the 1960s]. Ultimately Celeborn and Galadriel rule in Lothlorien. We also know they ruled Lothlorien sometime after an Elf named Amroth.

In still private texts of the early 1950s ['private' meaning not published by Tolkien], Galadriel enters the Silmarillion, as noted. She is born in Eldamar in the Year 1362 [Year of the Trees], and is the daughter of Finrod [later Finarfin]. After the speech of Feanor, Galadriel '... the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes' was eager to be gone [eager to see Middle-earth]. She swore no oath, but Feanor's words had kindled her heart, and she longed to see the wide lands of Middle-earth and to rule there a realm maybe, at her own will.

She is here said [Annals of Aman] to be the youngest of the House of Finwe, and ultimately she became a leader. After Feanor sailed off: 'Therefore, led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Inglor [Finrod] and Galadriel the valiant and fair, they dared to pass into the untrodden North,...'

This is basically the version chosen by Christopher Tolkien for the 1977 Silmarillion, including Galadriel's later conversation with Melian. Here I'll note something about the Kinslaying: in this conception, in a certain 'phase' of writing, so to speak, I firmly believe that Galadriel was simply not present for the Kinslaying.

Before Galadriel existed in Tolkien's imagination, in the Silmarillion as it stood in the later 1930s, the people of Finrod 'had no part in the dreadful deed that was then done', as during the march [earlier in the text] '... and at the rear came sorrowing Finrod and Inglor and many of the noblest and fairest of the Noldor; and they looked often backward, until the lamp of Ingwe was lost in the gathering tide of gloom...'

So to me it seems clear that [the idea is]: the folk of Finrod were the hindmost group, and simply came too late in any case, and Galadriel was 'dropped' into this family.

Tolkien essentially revised this passage in The Annals of Aman in the early 1950s, and dropped the statement I quoted above [had no part in the dreadful deed], and at this point at least he seems to have left it alone in Quenta Silmarillion itself. Anyway, if we jump to a later text written after the publication of The Lord of the Rings [from 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn'], we still find the description: 'She was welcome in Doriath, because her mother Earwen, daughter of Olwe, was Telerin and the niece of Thingol, and because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde; and she became a friend of Melian.'

So in the 1930s Finrod's [Finarfin's] folk had had no part in the Kinslaying, Galadriel drops into this family in the early 1950s, at the same time a revision to the 1930s version takes out the explicit reference, but a yet later text states the same basic thing in my opinion.


Tolkien will later alter Galadriel's role with respect to the Kinslaying, but to me it's important to keep this distinction at this point, considering the conversation with Melian, written at the same time, and considering that it is this version that appears in The Silmarillion as constructed by Christopher Tolkien.

Despite the revision, Finrod and Inglor are still at the back of the host however, and often they looked behind them, and so on -- and at the battle Feanor's folk were succoured by Fingon 'with the foremost people of Fingolfin', and we know that the host of Fingolfin followed Feanor, and of these Fingon was foremost, but at the rear came Finrod. So the order still makes sense with the idea.

If one conflates the later idea that Galadriel fought 'fiercely' in defense of the Teleri [an idea written in The Shibboleth of Feanor for example, itself dated 1968 or later] at Alqualonde, then one might interpret her to be 'hiding' [from Melian] an actual part in the Kinslaying, albeit in defense of the Teleri. This injection might reflect on her character in some measure, in some people's eyes. That's subjective of course, but in any event, when this conversation was written, which includes Angrod's defense of his house to Thingol, it would seem to me that Finrod/Finarfin's children were truly not present at Swanhaven, no matter what else they had chosen to do.

Galadriel and Inglor/Finrod were still leaders in the Rebellion, and since the Noldor were ultimately pardoned after the War of Wrath the question remains as to why Galadriel did not return Over Sea. The 1977 Silmarillion states generally that not all the Eldalie were 'willing' to forsake Middle-earth at this time, and a little later Galadriel is described: 'who alone remained of those who had led the Noldor to exile in Beleriand.'...

... but this is an editorial addition by Christopher Tolkien, and it's arguably vague as to why Galadriel did not sail West, despite the choice of 'willing' a bit earlier in the passage to refer generally to the Elves who remained. In any case Christopher Tolkien is aware that in the 1960s his father published that Galadriel was not allowed to pass Over Sea at this time, but that text comes later in this [my] chronology.

Interestingly, in the early 1950s we are not told [that I recall anyway], not in the Annals nor Quenta Silmarillion, that Galadriel fled Beleriand 'ere' the Fall of Nargothrond. And Christopher Tolkien refers to an interesting statement about Celeborn in Unfinished Tales: 'It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn 'escaped the sack of Doriath') and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril -- but this is nowhere stated.'

It is a natural enough assumption from the 1977 Silmarillion, or the 'earlier story' [relative to some], and we have little enough about Galadriel even, as the Silmarillion continues onward from the discussion with Melian.


Next, unless I forgot something, a text from later in the 1950s. 'Galadriel Greeleaves' I might call it!

Or I might not.

_______________

*much later Tolkien himself would publish, in connection with Galadriel's Ban:

'The question Si man i yulma nin enquantuva? and the question at the end of her song (Vol I, p. 389), What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, refer to the special position of Galadriel...'

JRRT, The Road Goes Ever On
The Elvish here means: 'Who now shall refill the cup for me?'


Last edited by Elthir on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:01 pm

I think it's important to the structure of LoTR that she "passed the test" of being tempted by the ring, and so is allowed to return west. It's possible this test just refers to whether or not she's got the moral fortitude to resist the ring, but it makes her final return at the Grey Havens ever more poignant that she does so with the ringbearer at her side.

It does raise the larger question that you point out: why was she singled out when the rest of the Noldor have been returning over the sea? No suitably heinous act is recounted. Maybe just because she's enough of a leader to know better?

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:09 pm

Tolkien will later speak to the matter of Galadriel's ban, it's just that I hadn't arrived there in my chronology, and it isn't clear from The Lord of the Rings itself that she was banned, nor do I think the idea was in place, or certainly in place if it was in JRRT's head at some point, at the time The Lord of the Rings was published.

Actually a ban isn't [initially] noted in the next two texts in my planned chronology, texts written after the book was published (after the fall of Morgoth Galadriel remains in Middle-earth in part for love of Celeborn, for example).

Sorry for the confusion.

It is ultimately revealed [1960s] that Galadriel wasn't singled out for a special ban, the leaders of the Rebellion were [so it seems], but she alone remained of these leaders when we meet her in The Lord of the Rings.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:23 pm

So he fortuitously left her statements open enough that he could later reinterpret them? I kind of like the idea.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:09 pm

[to jump ahead for a moment] Tolkien finally put Nerwen's ban into print in the 1960s when he published The Road Goes Ever On, interpreting certain of Galadriel's words from The Lord of the Rings. He also wrote a letter explaining the ban, at about the same time.

Unfortunately Tolkien was not done tinkering here! But that comes later Very Happy 


To my mind this is the true or 'real', and best version of Galadriel's tale: Galadriel the penitent rebel.

What then of Galadriel's words after she passes the test? I once imagined that as soon as she passed, she maybe somehow 'knew' in her heart that she could return West, but then I realized the words Tolkien refers to in connection with her ban, come after this hypothetical [imagined by me] realization.

So then I thought some more. And even more, till trolls came banging on the door.


And I thought that maybe these are songs that Galadriel had already crafted before she [hypothetically] 'knew', even though I thought and still think this is not really a good explanation -- meaning it's far better that Galadriel still believes she is banned while she says these lines, at this point anyway, even after passing the test. If she somehow knew 'in that moment', at least certainly, then the songs only refer to her earlier feelings.

This is ungood. I need a better internal way to see things here.

Help. Plus I feel like I am missing something obvious here.

An expression of estel maybe?

Moreover, Tolkien even referred to this in a note to Of Dwarves And Men, stating there that the first song [given in The Lord of the Rings in English only] was a...

'... considered composition no doubt made long before the coming of Frodo and independent of the arrival in Lorien of the One Ring. Whereas the Farewell was addressed direct to Frodo, and was an extempore outpouring in free rythmic style, reflecting the overwhelming increase in her regret and longing, and her personal despair after she had survived the terrible temptation (...) (in the event it proved that it was Galadriel's abnegation of pride and trust in her own powers, and her absolute refusal of any unlawful enhancement of them, that provided the ship to bear her back home.'
Okay my ungood-idea-in-the-first-place to explain Galadriel's earlier words fails according to this.


Especially after I looked up 'extempore' Smile
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:05 pm

My reading was the same as your original reading, and perhaps we could say that she knew in her heart she had passed the test and could return to Valinor, but her head had not yet accepted it? Such a life changing realization could not be processed immediately, I think. No images of Galadriel running about drunkenly shouting "I'm free, I'm free, I'm leaving this dump and the hell with the rest of you!"

Of course this would be our way of interpreting something that Tolkien was continually re-interpreting, but perhaps he could have used a little advice from the likes of us. Nod 

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Galadriel Greenleaves

Post by Elthir on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:42 pm

Okay, turning back to the chronology reached before the digression on Nerwen's ban, we turn to what appears to be a text written in the later 1950s, at least after The Lord of the Rings was published: The Elessar.

This is a text described as 'in the first stage of composition' and 'probably written at about the same time as 'Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn, or a little earlier'. As Christopher Tolkien added 'or a little earlier', the text called 'Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn' comes next in my chronology. Hammond and Scull place a general date of the later 1950s on Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn.

The Elessar contains a few interesting points about Galadriel. Recall that Tolkien had published that sometime in the Second Age, Celeborn had migrated to the South of Greenwood, and here, when Gandalf arrives, Galadriel 'dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great.'

And here she is 'unwilling' to forsake Middle-earth.

Concerning the timing here, we know Gandalf did not arrive before the Third Age. Still, I wonder if Tolkien was not here thinking of a special visit from Olorin -- not yet the Wizard Gandalf -- as I just noticed that Tolkien uses Olorin throughout this text, employing a parenthetical reference to explain that he was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir.

This makes more sense actually, as Galadriel should not need the Elessar stone for preservation power after the Istari arrive, as she can employ Nenya by then. And in Last Writings, Glorfindel II it is said: 'That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

So perhaps something like this is what Tolkien was imagining here. And I got a mention of Glorfindel in!

In the second Elessar tale -- noting that both versions here are intended as internal versions; that is, Tolkien is not changing his mind here, he is presenting two variations of a history that both exist within the context of the story -- Galadriel still seems to be living in Greenwood, and we are certainly in the Second Age 'ere Sauron deluded the smiths of Eregion'.

So Galadriel 'came there' [to Eregion] indicating that she didn't live there in my opinion, and returning home, wielding the Elessar 'all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the Forest.' Interestingly, Celebrimbor here reveals that he loved Galadriel, though she had turned to 'Celeborn of the Trees' [another Greenwood reference perhaps? although there were plenty of Trees in Doriath too, I guess], keeping in mind that at this point, Celebrimbor is not yet a Feanorean however.

With respect to the ban: in the first tale Galadriel is unwilling to forsake Middle-earth, which was changed at some point to 'but was not permitted yet to forsake Middle-earth'.

Again when was this changed? I don't know, but in the second part of the text it seems that Galadriel says, as first written [in response to the question: Will you then pass Over Sea?]: 'Nay (...) Of Finrod's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finrod do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the blessed? Here I am mightier.'

Hmm. By the way the text as printed has Finarfin for Finrod, but this was changed by Christopher Tolkien in Unfinished Tales.

At the end of the Elessar text there is further description in which Tolkien appears to take out the character of Enerdhil of Gondolin, having Celebrimbor himself make the first Elessar there. I wonder if Tolkien 'would have' put Enerdhil back in actually, once Celebrimbor became a Feanorean, as then one might wonder what Celebrimbor was doing in Gondolin. But that aside...

... with respect to Greenwood the Great, in the seemingly 'next' account 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', it was said that the realm of Lindorinand 'extended into the forests on both sides of the Great River, including the region that afterwards was Dol Guldur,' and Christopher Tolkien notes that 'the coming of the Shadow to the Forest' [from the text The Elessar] undoubtedly refers to the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldur.

It is notable too, that in this account Orodreth is not named as one of Galadriel's brothers. Tolkien will ultimately change that Orodreth was Galadriel's brother, although this relationship [that he was her brother] was retained by Christopher Tolkien for the 1977 Silmarillion.


It is interesting to see Galadriel 'of Greenwood' here, coming to Eregion from the East. What of her connection [or Celeborn's] to Eregion? Tolkien will look at this, and so will I in the next exciting installment of 'Galadriel and her husband'.

Coming 'soon' to a theater near you! If by theater I mean this thread, which I do.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:34 pm

Cut to the chase, Elthir: do Galadriel and Celeborn live happily ever after or not? bounce 

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:02 pm

LOL. We only have the later 1950s, the 1960s [and the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings], and the early 1970s to go.

Plus letters, and Tolkien fiddling with both names. And other things I've probably forgotten.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:21 am

SPOILER ALERT!  Galadriel ditches Celeborn and departed Middle-earth with Elrond, leaving Celeborn to mope about in southern Mirkwood for a few decades before slumming around with Elrond's sons (Freud would probably have a field day with this).

Edit: Didn't see the new page, so this post looks a little silly not being right below Halfy's like I'd intended. Embarassed
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22715
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:28 am

Hey! Why didn't you put that in spoilers?! Mad 

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:32 am

Oh, not another spoilerphobe. Rolling Eyes
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22715
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:57 am

Just until the new spin-off Galadriel movie comes out. Nod

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum