Galadriel and her husband

Page 3 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:24 pm

I can say one thing, in the new trailer Galadriel will not... ahh... speak...[zzz] slowly, nor do Gandalf's hair. Nor pose knowingly for the invisible camera.

That said I'll try to speed things up and skip over stuff, important or not. I'm starting to bore me.

Okay in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn [dated between 1920 and 1996]

Galadriel and Celeborn found Eregion, her son is Amroth, blah blah, yadda, yadda, Sauron helps with some joolery, gets mad, oh almost forgot, the Mirdain boot Galadriel to Lorien, something something, rings, Numenoreans, Belfalas.

Next: the 1960s!
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:08 pm

Was Eregion lost?

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:37 pm

That's a good question actually. Tolkien had already published that the Noldor found[ed] Eregion -- not Galadriel nor Celeborn -- and later for the second edition he added that Celebrimbor, now a Feanorean, was lord of Eregion -- not Galadriel nor Celeborn again [who were founders and rulers initially, before being ousted, in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn]

Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn is thus saying a silly thing here. I don't believe it ever happened, and I won't.

I'll skip it. Again.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:39 pm

Galadriel and Celeborn found Eregion, her son is Amroth, blah blah, yadda, yadda, Sauron helps with some joolery, gets mad, oh almost forgot, the Mirdain boot Galadriel to Lorien, something something, rings, Numenoreans, Belfalas.- Elthir

I think that might be slightly too sped up for my buckied brain, it sounded suspiciously like someone who has got lax with the comforts of life in a Lore Tower, and those who get lax in a Tower of Lore soon find themselves no longer in a Tower of Lore, ask Eldo Nod 

_________________
Pure Publications is Reasonably Proud to Present the first ever Forumshire novel!

Gingerlocks and the Three McTyrants

- get your copy here for a limited period- free*



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
avatar
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 39510
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 46
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:44 pm

Hmm, good point Petty. Okay I won't skip it.

Coming soon: 'Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn'. Full[er] version.

A text many like to quote, but still might have some silly things in it.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:49 pm

You could maybe take the approach of specifically pointing out what makes it so silly.  This may entertain you enough to get you through it. And enough people have read UT that they could relate to it directly.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:36 pm

Petty! Extremely Crabbit
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22715
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:37 pm

On a serious note though Elthir, I have been reading along in this thread (somewhat behind the pace of updates though) and I'm really enjoying your analyses. Thumbs Up
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22715
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:51 pm

its better not to be lax in the Tower of Lore, that garderobe was too wide and I fell into the moat. No 

_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21901
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:13 am

Thank you Eldo! And I am only keeping the Tower in hopefully good order for your inevitable return.

Okay, some stuff I find problematic, or at least questionable [if not silly], with the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn. I find this text is used rather widely on the web, but in any case it's: 'a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed' even though, yes, it is nonetheless almost the sole narrative source for some events of the Second Age.

The following is not a complete look at this text, but it's more than my last attempt anyway.

warning: do not operate heavy machinery if/while reading the following

A) for love of Celeborn (and probably with some pride of her own) Galadriel did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor.

This was superseded by Galadriel's ban, published in The Road Goes Ever On [RGEO]. Note here that yet again, there seems to be no ban.

B) Galadriel and Celeborn -- with many Noldor in their following, crossed Ered Lindon and dwelt about Evendim, where Amroth their son was born.

Amroth as Galadriel's son was later rejected.

What about this sojourn to Evendim? Nothing much seems to happen there outside of Amroth's birth, but in any case RGEO simply states that Celeborn and Galadriel crossed Ered Lindon and went to Eregion. Granted, this could mean that they 'ultimately' passed to Eregion, but still one only injects that much based on an extant draft text, where the published account, albeit brief, gives no hint.

Appendix B notes that later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, because of Mithril. This would also seem to 'forget' that there were many Noldor who first seemingly went to Evendim, if so, and not for Mithril. Of Dwarves And Men (later than Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn), notes that there were Men about Evendim in the Second Age, although admittedly they could have moved there later (although this is not stated in any event).

I can't prove that this stay at Evendim was certainly rejected here, but I do wonder about it.

C) Galadriel and Celeborn establish Eregion. Celebrimbor is a craftsman from Gondolin.

For the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien would add that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion (with no reason to think he ruled after anyone), and a Feanorean, which to my mind reflects a notable status considering the tale of the Silmarils. The Feanorean detail was added to CG&C itself at some point. CJRT notes: 'The text is much emended, and it is not always possible to see what belongs to the time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later.'

D) Galadriel's scorn of Sauron

Christopher Tolkien notes that there is no explanation why Galadriel, as a co-ruler and founder of Eregion here, scorned Sauron and yet permitted him to remain in Eregion. This could have been a factor leading to the abandonment (if so) of Galadriel as a founder of Eregion, which then would have a 'domino effect' (of sorts), as she would not need to be ousted from power in Eregion, and thus not need to pass to Lorien before the fall of Eregion.

E) Galadriel, ousted from power in Eregion, passes to 'Lorinand' (Lindorinand) before the Fall of Eregion.

As for when Galadriel or Celeborn passed to Lorien (and who ruled Eregion), there are some interesting, fairly 'new' statements in the linguistic writings of Words, Phrases, and Passages (WPP) for consideration.


'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin
I can't date these entires as necessarily before or after Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn however. Still, we have two descriptions which at least seem to say that Galadriel passed to Lorien after the fall of Eregion, and I compare these to the late description noted in Unfinished Tales (in the Amroth And Nimrodel section): the people of Lorien...

'... had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age. At that time Elrond went (...) but Celeborn went at first to Lorien and fortified it...'
A contemporary statement describes that both Galadriel and Celeborn passed to Lorien at that time -- that is, after the destruction of Eregion. One could quibble with the word 'retreated' I guess, or other factors, but on the other hand, these entries* could simply speak to a revised conception.

F) comitting Lorinand to Amroth

Amroth becomes a Sindarin Elf, son of Amdir (or Malgalad -- if these Elves are the same CJRT doesn't know which name replaced the other). Seemingly Amdir would be in power in Lindorinand sometime in the Second Age, with Amroth taking over after Amdir's death (the Last Alliance).

F1) After Sauron is defeated in Eriador, Galadriel chooses to remain in Middle-earth as Sauron himself isn't vanquished.

The ban aside, this one isn't problematic really, in my opinion. I just forgot about it and had to put it somewhere. It is F1 so I didn't have to change G.

This is another mention of a reason for Galadriel remaining in Middle-earth, but keep in mind the context here: Galadriel had ruled her own realm [a realm of her founding too], well okay with Celeborn, but still, and let Sauron in, and from this she was ousted from power by the Sauron-influenced Mirdain; not to mention the making of the Rings of Power of course, and ultimately the fall of Eregion.


G) the agelong sojourn in Belfalas. Celeborn never visits Lorinand in the Second Age.

If Amroth is no longer Galadriel's son, as we know to have been revised, and Celeborn does visit Lindorinand in the Second Age, this sojourn seems doubtful in my opinion.

The idea of the agelong sojourn in Belfalas is not only not mentioned in later texts (as CJRT comments), but a later note tells us that: 'To Lorien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and at the end of the Second Age;...' (Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel And Celeborn) while it can be noted that in Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn: 'There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth; there Amroth their son at times visited them, and their company was swelled by Nandorin Elves from Lorinand. It was not until far on in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lorinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there, in the year 1981.'

____________________


These are my main questions. I also realize that my so called 'domino effect' works the other way: for example, I haven't proven beyond all doubt that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion from the start, so I can't treat it as a fact with which to then suggest that Galadriel was not ousted from power -- and 'thus' had no great reason to pass to Lorien before Eregion fell.

That said, I would also raise Tolkien's arguable perspective here: when revising the second edition he must have been aware that no one is going to know that Galadriel (a major Elvish character in the book) founded and ruled Eregion, as this was only according to a hasty draft text among his private papers. Yet JRRT simply adds that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion? In my opinion he must have realized how readers would naturally interpret that.

And consider again that Galadriel was noted as scorning Sauron yet seemingly** allowed him to stay in the realm she founded. Tolkien would arguably have to deal with this if the notion survived, even if he provided no explanation in the extant tale. In Lindon Gil-galad (ultimately the grandson of Galadriel's brother Angrod) and Elrond rejected Sauron...

... but what if Sauron cozened a Feanorean and ruler of Eregion? Now Galadriel's scorn (if still to be noted) is insightful in some measure but rejected by Celebrimbor and the Mirdain. And Galadriel will await her rule of a realm, taking over Lindorinand well into the Third Age, after the loss of Amroth. Earlier in CG&C it's noted that (keeping in mind that they had many Noldor in their following): 'Celeborn and Galadriel came to be regarded as Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador, including the wandering companies of Nandorin origin...'

And again, Galadriel and Celeborn establish the realm of Eregion, and later their power is said to have grown; and after the Mirdain (though themselves 'very powerful in Eregion') are won over the Jewel-smiths revolt and seize power in Eregion.

I suppose it's possible, but it seems unlikely to me that Galadriel with Celeborn would not have had the power, at least at first, to keep Annatar out (and there is no real suggestion that the Mirdain were forced to meet Annatar in some location outside the realm, although this too is possible I guess). In any case, if Celebrimbor is lord of Eregion to start with, then I'm not sure Galadriel need pass to Lorien in the first place (at this time), as then the Mirdain would not need to revolt against her and Celeborn.

Galadriel might even have escaped Eregion before Sauron came there with War -- not to Lorien but to Lindon -- as in one of the two later (but contemporary) descriptions, after Celeborn fortified Lindorinand and so on, he is said to have joined Galadriel in Lindon. Possibly this was connected to hiding the Three after the Elves perceived the designs of Sauron, but that is my speculation.


Anyway, again I want to stress that my opinions here are not necessarily correct, but I think that Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn, while popular enough on the web perhaps, might be at least questionable in more than one or two details.

____________________

*under the entry Celebrimbor in Words Phrases And Passages, he is called the lord of the Elves of Eregion and the ruler of the realm 'at the time of the forging of the Rings: see App. B, III p. 364' This cannot refer to the statement that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion however, for Appendix B had not yet been revised at this point, but simply to entries in The Tale of Years.


** the isolated and undateable note (note 7, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn) is not really all that instructive here I think: Galadriel was said not to be deceived concerning Aulendil (Annatar) in the train of Aule in Valinor, 'but this is not decisive' and so on (as he could have been a follower of Aule very early on), and in any event, we don't know the full measure of Galadriel's attitude here toward Aulendil beyond this.


Anyway it's possible too that within CG&C itself the idea was that Galadriel didn't allow Sauron in Eregion, and that Annatar not only worked with the Mirdain 'in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn' but was even in Eregion secretly!

That said, Christopher Tolkien himself seems to say that no explanation is offered as to why 'if she did perceive his true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion.' -- thus he would appear not to take this description of secrecy as extending to Sauron's actual presence in Eregion, as compared to what he was doing.

Or so I interpret that.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:43 pm

It's nice to see Tolkien's possible thinking process laid out to explain the changes in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. Helps make it more digestible.

As far as Celebrimbor being a leader in Eregion rather than just a talented jewel smith, one of the most compelling images in the history of the ring is his broken body being carried as a standard at the front of Sauron's forces. Unless he was a major leader of the resistance I can't see his body being given such prominence. Oddly enough I think the power of this image alone would have led Tolkien to make Celebrimbor a major leader. As you state it also would solve Galadriel's leadership conflict concerning Annatar.

I'd be surprised if many people quote CGC as canon, for it very clearly is a sketch of evolving thought. Anyone who does so can't have read it very carefully.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:51 pm

I'd be surprised if many people quote CGC as canon, for it very clearly is a sketch of evolving thought. Anyone who does so can't have read it very carefully.
My impression about 'many' may be false admittedly, and it's probably really based on what stuck in my memory more often [while reading the web over the years now] versus what didn't.

In any case I'll retract this statement or related implications, although my opinion of the text remains -- which is not intended as reflecting negatively upon Tolkien, as this is not a finished work and he is obviously entitled to change his mind, especially about anything not yet in print [in my opinion].

And obviously not everyone need agree with my subjective opinions about CG&C... which would lead anyone to quoting from this text as freely as they think is right, for their own reasons.



Anyway, again considering what Tolkien had already put into print about Celeborn going to Greenwood in the SA, one wonders [well I do] how this was intended to fit with CG&C, as Celeborn doesn't even appear to travel East of the Mistycal Mountains at any point in the Second Age.

The snippets from the Amroth And Nimrodel section are much later than CG&C, but I think the idea changed somewhat in Words, Phrases and Passages, which I would guess came after CG&C.

Hammond and Scull suggest that 'Words, Phrases, and Passages' may have been compiled in response to a Scunthorpe librarian's list, which had been forwarded to Tolkien in December 1959; and in February 1960 Tolkien wrote to Rayner Unwin, suggesting that he had started working on corrections or explanations. And in May 1960 Tolkien wrote about the list: 'When I first worked at it, it revealed to me that a good deal of work on the nomenclature and linguistic elements in The Lord of the Rings was needed, and I have done that.'

More on WPP later, but if Celeborn passes to Lorien after the destruction of Eregion, at least he is on the 'correct' side of the Mountains in the Second Age, if we imagine him as being in 'South Greenwood' in this Age, I mean.

Eregion seems to be the destination according to later texts [whether after a sojourn to Evendim or not], and the suggestion, at least, in Appendix B that early in the Second Age Celeborn went to Greenwood and ruled there might make things too complicated now, which is maybe part of what led JRRT to take out this statement in the revised edition.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

my letter opener

Post by Elthir on Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:08 pm

Appendix B [part I]

Galadriel in the tengwar or ahem... 'letters'.

It's clever! Well unless it isn't Rolling Eyes 

As we have reached the 1960 mark, here's 'some' [in case I missed one or more] letters [that spell out words] from 'Letters' but not really tengwar, even though this word can be translated with 'letters'. Some of these are brief references, but you never know what someone will find interesting. Or not.

__________

Letter 91, 1944 November: Tolkien mentions that the final scene of his story will be the passage of Bilbo, Elrond, and Galadriel through the woods of the Shire on their way to the Grey Havens.

Letter 131, probably late 1951 [Waldman letter]: Galadriel referred to as an 'Elven-queen' in the context of her remonstrating with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word magic -- both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for the Elves.



Letter 142, 1953 [to Father Murray]: Robert Murray had compared the image of Galadriel to that of the Virgin Mary. Tolkien responded: 'I know exactly what you mean by the order of Grace; and of course by your references to Our Lady, upon which all my own small perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded.'

Letter 144, 1954:  the origin of the Istari was not known to any but a few in the Third Age, such as Elrond and Galadriel. Galadriel is as old, or older than Shelob. Last of Great among the High Elves, and 'awoke' in Eldamar beyond the Sea.

Letter 153 [Draft], 1954: Celebrian daughter of Galadriel [within context of Half-elven explanation]

Letter 154, 1954: Gimli is called 'servant' of Galdriel in reference to him as a unique exception with respect to passing into the West.

Letter 155, 1954 [draft passage of letter 154, not included in the version actually sent]: references again to Galadriel in her role of criticizing the mortal use of the word 'magic'.

Letter 156, 1954 [draft]: with respect to Gandalf’s healing: 'Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment'

Letter 181, not dated, probably Jan or Feb 1956 [drafts]: after their efforts at preserving the past fell to bits: 'There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart.'

Letter 210, not dated; June 1958 [comments on film treatment]: in reference to the term 'Elvenqueen' for Galadriel Tolkien writes: '(She is not in fact one.)'

Letter 211, 1958: Tolkien's footnote to Oilosse: '(See the lament of Galadriel I 394) oiolosseo = Mt. Uilos.'

Letter 213, 1958:  'Or more important, I am a Christian (which can be deduced from my stories), and in fact a Roman Catholic. The latter 'fact' perhaps cannot be deduced; though one critic (by letter) asserted that the invocations of Elbereth, and the character of Galadriel as directly described (or through the words of Gimli and Sam) were clearly related to Catholic devotion to Mary.'


Letter 230, 1961: 'Treebeard's greeting to Celeborn and Galadriel meant 'O beautiful ones, parents of beautiful children.'

Letter 236, 1961: '(…) But alas! Faced with actual stories people are always more ready to believe in learning and arcane knowledge than in invention, especially if they are bemused by the title 'professor'. (…) In all Old English poetry 'elves' (ylfe) occurs once only, in Beowulf, associated with trolls, giants, and the Undead, as the accursed offspring of Cain. The gap between that and, say, Elrond or Galadriel is not bridged by learning.'

Appendix B part II comes later. I think it's Appendix B anyway. Appendix A was about Elrond in any case.

Next: 'Galadriel Goldenleaves' [and Elthir disagrees with Tolkien]
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

the long awaited sequel to Galadriel Greenleaves

Post by Elthir on Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:51 pm

Galadriel Goldenleaves

In around 1960, or in existence by 1965 [see: A Description Of The Island Of Numenor in Unfinished Tales, and Words, Phrases And Passages, Parma Eldalamberon 17], Tolkien decides that the golden mallorn trees of Lothlorien have been introduced there by Galadriel.

Tar-Aldarion gives some of the fruits [a nut with a silver shale] to Gil-galad, but the trees did not take root in Lindon 'but Gil-galad gave some to his kinswoman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flourished in the guarded land of Lothlorien beside the river Anduin...'

It is also noted that Galadriel's mallorns did not reach the height or girth of the groves of Numenor, and we learn that there were mallorn-trees in Eressea too, for after five centures the mallorn trees of Numenor reached heights that were 'scarce less' than those of Eressea.

Okay a nice idea. But when did Galadriel introduce them in Lothlorien? Considerning the seemingly confusing movements of Galadriel, and especially that in the later chronology she seems not to have taken up rule in Lothlorien until well into the Third Age, I have to wonder if [what I think was] the earlier idea wasn't just simpler.

The earlier idea, in my opinion, was that Lothlorien was famous for its golden trees from the First Age. I base this upon an early variant of the poem from Legolas [The Treason Of Isengard, Lothlorien], in which it is noted of Amroth:

An elven-lord he was of old
when all the woods were young
and in Lothlorien with gold
the boughs of trees were hung.


Okay it's a rejected part of a poem, but still. And in The Lord of the Rings itself, Haldir says of Cerin Amroth: 'For this is the heart of the ancient realm as it was long ago, and here is the mound of Amroth, where in happier days his high house was built' which included mallorn trees of great height.

Now this doesn't necessarily mean that we go all the way back to the First Age of course, but to me the implication is that the trees are flourishing in Amroth's time, who is lord of Lothlorien before Galadriel and Celeborn rule in Caras Galadhon, for Amroth was still [The Fellowship of the Ring]...

Of old he was an Elven-king,
A lord of tree and glen,
When golden were the boughs in spring
In fair Lothlorien.


Amroth rules before Galadriel, and in an already golden Lorien [note that even in the rejected scenario where Amroth is Galadriel's son, Galadriel committed Lorien to Amroth in the Second Age].

So again, especially as Amroth becomes the son of Amdir, not Galadriel, when is Galadriel planting these mallorn-trees in Lothlorien? And why plant them in Lorien and not her own lands, well before she takes over Lothlorien after Amroth's death?

It's not impossible, of course, that Galadriel should introduce the golden trees in Lothlorien when Amroth rules, in a land where she visits but does not yet live [granting Elvish 'visits' can be long], but why not in Lindon or Eregion for examples?Especially Lindon in a sense, as Gil-galad desired them there, and it was a 'western' land; and Celeborn was later said to rule a fief in Harlindon.

Again, Tolkien might have been able to arrange a story that answered my questions, but I sort of 'disagree' that he needed to have Galadriel introduce the golden trees of Lothlorien -- although not that he 'needed' too obviously, but he seemingly wanted to in any case.

For me the earlier idea seems simpler, even though there is no 'western history' here -- meaning in the earlier scenario the trees do not necessarily hail from the West in origin, meaning at least Eressea in origin. They were, it appears, a special kind of tree that just happened to be found, or did well in, Lothlorien. Or at least their growing in Lorien is not explained.


That said, although Tolkien himself never published the idea, he did note it in at least two 'relatively late' texts.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by David H on Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:28 pm

...but I sort of 'disagree' ....
It's a bit of a challenge to firmly disagree with somebody who keeps changing their position, isn't it? Wink 
avatar
David H
Horsemaster, Fighting Bears in the Pacific Northwest

Posts : 6532
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:02 pm

I hear it's sometimes good to keep changing one's position -- it can help with the circulation for instance, or helps reveal that one has not been turned to stone [if that's an issue].
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:39 pm

thats why I find it hard to get out of bed at dawn. turned to stone.

very interesting about the Mallorn trees I wonder if Tolkien was thinking of an actual species of tree. The closest I can think of is Silver Birch, but I dont think they get too big. girth wise.


_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21901
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Eldorion on Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:58 pm

Elthir wrote:I hear it's sometimes good to keep changing one's position -- it can help with the circulation for instance, or helps reveal that one has not been turned to stone [if that's an issue].
Elthir

Elfir

Elfir

Elf

Seek not the Lore of Elf(ir)s, for they will answer both yes and no. study
avatar
Eldorion
You're Gonna Carry That Weight

Posts : 22715
Join date : 2011-02-13
Age : 23
Location : Maryland, United States

http://nolondil.tumblr.com/essays

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:35 pm

Nice Eldorion! LOL

I think there is some of the beech in a mallorn, so to speak. Tolkien liked beeches in any case [well he loved trees in general anyway]. Especially my young beeches keep their leaves through winter -- not exactly what I would call 'golden' perhaps, but especially when the sunlight hits them just right, especially beautiful.

Wow I said especially three times in one sentence.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:15 pm

Elthir wrote:
Wow I said especially three times in one sentence.
A lesser man would have just edited his post.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

The Second Edition and Appendix C

Post by Elthir on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:42 pm

Appendix C is for the stuff I forget and so screw up my own chronology. Ahem.

I'll note that there are genealogical tables of the descendants of Finwe which can be dated to 1959. I'll give the 'final' Nos Finarfin later however, since Christopher Tolkien explains: 'my father was still using and altering these when he wrote the excursus to The Shibboleth of Feanor' which text I didn't forget, but have not yet arrived at in my chronology.

And here I can put other stuff I forget too, and maybe less people will notice.

Second Edition, Nos Galadriel and her husband


For the dates of the Second Edition I'll just refer to the years 1965 -- 1967, as these are the years in which various revised editions came out in reaction to the Ace Books copyright controversy. These are the years noted by Hammond and Scull in their 'A Brief History of The Lord of the Rings' [ A Reader's Companion] too. I'll give the First Edition passages for easier comparison:

First Edition Appendix B: '... but many of the Sindar passed eatward and established realms in the forest far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest. But the wife of Celeborn was Noldorin: Galadriel, sister of Felagund of the House of Finrod.'  Revised by Tolkien to '... in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune dwelt Gil-galad, last heir of the kings of the Noldor in exile (...) In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven woman. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir.'

So here we see that Felagund is at last, in print, Finrod. Celeborn's passing to the south of Greenwood is removed, but he is now a kinsman of Thingol and dwelt 'for a time' in Lindon.

First Edition Appendix F: 'Noblest of all was the Lady Galadriel of the royal house of Finrod, father of Felagund, Lord of Nargothrond.' Revised by Tolkien to 'Noblest of all was the Lady Galadriel of the royal house of Finarfin and sister of Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond.'

So here we see... well you can read.

Now keep in mind, even if you didn't know and although I haven't told you yet, that in Words Phrases and Passages Tolkien had written:

'Certainly Finrod must become name of Felagund instead of Inglor, NOT of his father since 'Finrod' never left Valinor and could not have a Sindarized name.'

JRRT entry Finrod
And so it was done.


Never mind that Finarfin was later characterized by Tolkien as a Sindarized name in any case, of Quenya Finwe Arafinwe.

That is Fin[we] Ar[a]fin[we].

But again, never mind that.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:47 pm

scratch 

Glad you're working things out, a bit eye-glassing to me.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
avatar
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 13184
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

never before in the history of thread making that I am familiar with

Post by Elthir on Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:23 pm

And now, prepare yourselves dear Galadriel and Celeborn fans, for an amazing...


... musical interlude. I felt such a long thread needed one.

Please hum softly to yourselves for as long as you feel it is appropriate.
avatar
Elthir
Sharrasi's prentice

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:01 pm


_________________
avatar
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 21901
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 87
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Orwell on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:43 pm

Elthir wrote:I hear it's sometimes good to keep changing one's position -- it can help with the circulation for instance, or helps reveal that one has not been turned to stone [if that's an issue].
Well said methinks, Elthir. cheers

Though you do run the risk of turning debates into discussions with your hint - as I see it - of open mindedness. I'm not sure what Forum etiquette is here, but I fear it is something like: 'No discussions here, Man! Be a Man (or Masculine Woman) and debate with a will to win. All Glory goes to the victor!" Very Happy

_________________
"Skirts!" cried our respectable Master Odo. "Skirts! And they have the temerity to call them 'kilts'.... Eru darn my socks!"

From "The True Tale of the Un-magical Coal Scuttle."
avatar
Orwell
Dark Presence with Gilt Edge

Posts : 8567
Join date : 2011-05-24
Age : 99
Location : Ozhobbitstan

Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum