Galadriel and her husband

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Porgy Bunk-Banks on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:52 pm

 I've been soooo hoping there would be a bit I could get jiggy with....




:carrot: :carrot: :carrot: :carrot: :carrot:


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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:04 pm

Porgy, yes dancing is encouraged too!

Though you do run the risk of turning debates into discussions with your hint - as I see it - of open mindedness.
I sometimes forget this is the interweb Wink
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the road to Galadriel the rebel

Post by Elthir on Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:13 pm

The Road Goes Ever On

At about the same time as the revised second edition of The Lord of the Rings appeared [well close enough], Tolkien also published The Road Goes Ever On. In this book there is 'stuff' [sorry to get technical here] about song and language, and major Galadriel stuff [and something about her husband too]. In Tolkien's look at Namarie, he writes:

The question Si man i yulma nin enquantuva? and the quesion at the end of her song (Vol. I, p. 389), What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, refer to the special position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrown of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the mountains of Eredluin with her husband (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion. But it was impossible for one of the High-Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward for all that she had done to oppose him, but above all for her rejection of the Ring when it came within her power, the ban was lifted, and she returned over the Sea, as is told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.'
This is major Galadriel stuff!

And some of it Tolkien would possibly forget 'not that long' after [or forget that he had published it maybe, as opposed to written it somewhere]? Ahem. Anyway for now compare a letter written at about the same time as this book hit bookstores: But first: also within his commentary about Namarie, Tolkien explained that Calacirian (Vol. I p. 248) is an anglicized form of Kalakiryan(de). Never forget this. Ever.

Okay the letter: after Morgoth was overthrown...

'The Exiles were allowed to return -- save for a few chief actors in the Rebellion of whom at the time of the L. R. only Galadriel remained.**

**At the time of her lament in Lorien she believed this to be perennial, as long as Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressea, the solitary Isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. (The land of Aman, after the downfall of Numenor, was no longer in physical existence 'within the circles of the world'). Her prayer was granted -- but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.'
JRRT, from drafts to a letter to Mr. Rang, letter 297. At the top Tolkien wrote...

'Some reflections in preparing an answer to a letter from one Mr. Rang about investigations into my nomenclature. In the event only a brief (and therefore rather severe) reply was sent, but I retain these notes.'
Tolkien added the date, Aug. 1967.


The date today is 11 November, 2013. Never confuse these dates. Ever.

Dance on.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:41 pm

I think this version of Galadriel's story and how it relates to her actions in LotR's is the one I find most satisfying as a reader.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:04 pm

yep, though in the Silmarillion she isn't much of a leader in the revolt, more just tagging along. Seems like a harsh punishment for just getting caught up in things.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:41 pm

I think this version of Galadriel's story and how it relates to her actions in LotR's is the one I find most satisfying as a reader.
Fully agreed Petty!

In the Silmarillion (1977) Galadriel is said to lead when the Exiles have to face the crossing into Middle-earth after Feanor departed (as they 'dared to pass into the bitterest north'). At this point, Galadriel is specifically noted as leading with Felagund, along with Fingolfin and his sons.

This is basically the history as imagined in the early 1950s and chosen by Christopher Tolkien for his constructed Silmarillion, which agrees well enough with the rebel Galadriel in RGEO in my opinion.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:51 pm

When I read the Lothlorien section of LotR's this is the version of Galadriel I have in my head. It adds so much extra weight and poignancy to her words.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:52 pm

The worst thing she did was stand by when the boats were taken by force - which is pretty bad come to think of it. She should at least have turned back then.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:53 pm

halfwise wrote:The worst thing she did was stand by when the boats were taken by force - which is pretty bad come to think of it.  She should at least have turned back then.
Do you mean when Feanor fought with the Teleri?
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:56 pm

Yes. Even if she wasn't anywhere around, once she found out what happened she should have rejected the expedition. Other than that, I don't see that she ever did anything so bad she should be banned for life.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:20 pm

halfwise wrote:Yes.  Even if she wasn't anywhere around, once she found out what happened she should have rejected the expedition.  Other than that, I don't see that she ever did anything so bad she should be banned for life.
Yes, I think it can be shown that in this phase, Galadriel and Finrod arrived after the killings of Swanhaven. I think what we can say is that in RGEO and in the 1977 Silmarillion, the reason for Galadriel's ban is consistent at least, even if one disagrees that the ban as punishment equals her actions. In both she is a leader (and a 'chief actor' in the letter). For easier comparison...

RGEO again: '... refer to the special position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrown of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return,...' Compared with (1977 Silmarillion):  'The fire of their hearts was young, and led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Finrod and Galadriel, they dared to pass into the bitterest North; and finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helcaraxe and the cruel hills of ice.'

So I can't agree Galadriel was only tagging along at this point anyway, even in this phase.

Relatively soon [1968 or later] Tolkien will imagine Galadriel as actually fighting in defense of the Teleri, and afterward: '... she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fear with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could.'

But once again, in my chronology I haven't arrived there yet. Almost! I'm rather slow sometimes!
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:25 pm

I have to say Elthir, and not just in the hope of a button, I have been enjoying this discourse immensely.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:35 pm

Thanks Petty! And buttons for enjoyment are easily given.

And I'll just take one from me for writing 'Fear' instead of Feanor for some reason! Very Happy 

That should be 'follow Feanor' in the text I dated 1968 or later in my last post. LOL.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:36 pm

Just so long as I dont lose any for not noticing it.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:39 pm

I always thought the fact that Galadriel went along, with all her misgivings about Feanor, to avenge the honour of her family was part of what made her such a strong and independent character.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by malickfan on Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:44 pm

Can I just ask Elthir, How the heck do you keep all of this chronology in order?

I've read all the books 5 or 6 times, but (as interesting as this thread is) frankly I'm a little lost at times.

And how did you get hold of a copy of The Road Goes Ever On, it's been out of print for years (I don't like paying over the odds for secod hand books)?

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:15 pm

Can I just ask Elthir, How the heck do you keep all of this chronology in order?
I'm not sure that I am, actually Very Happy  but if I seem to be so far, that's something I guess Wink 

The reason I set out to disentangle the external stuff [some time ago now] is that I desired, for myself anyway, an internal history, a history within the subcreated, Secondary World. Or perhaps call it a 'reader's version' compared to a 'scholarly' look, using poorly chosen words.

For example, for me the impact or experience of reading Christopher Tolkien's Children of Hurin is very different from the impact or experience of reading all the texts (and commentary about those texts) from which that version of the story is made, or even knowing about all the external details of the true state of the story.

I enjoy the 'scholarly pursuit' but I also want to enjoy the tale and (what I'll call) engaging in the Secondary World that Tolkien created. I wanted to read the full tale of Galadriel and Celeborn as if Tolkien finished it, published it, and the various external drafts were never revealed to the public. You could say, in a sense: I just wanted to read the story.

However Tolkien himself only published so much, and I also wanted 'as much as possible' in my imagined version, so I set about to find it, using my own subjective measures and opinions to arrive there, including when I came upon seemingly conflicting material that I decided to 'accept' as internal, or part of the legendarium. But anyway, that meant I had to find out about this history first, at least for me, and so I dug like a Noldo for mithril.

And with this thread I am still digging in a sense. I dug deeper here than before, and made some interesting finds and connections just by doing it, or reading reactions.

Probably not the kind of answer you were looking for! If any of that makes enough sense.

And how did you get hold of a copy of The Road Goes Ever On, it's been out of print for years (I don't like paying over the odds for secod hand books)?
I'm pretty sure it was an Ebay purchase. I can't remember how much I paid though (too long ago). My edition is the 'Black One' published by Harper Collins in 2002. It came with a free CD too!

A first edition must be more expensive, I would guess, and probably contains no CD Wink
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Orwell on Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:52 pm

halfwise wrote:
Elthir wrote:
Wow I said especially three times in one sentence.
A lesser man would have just edited his post.
Nice. Very Happy


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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:11 pm

Yes I found that especially nice Very Happy 
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Elthir on Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:51 pm

By the way, here's a more accurate answer to Malickfan's question: for example, I just realized I forgot an interesting development with respect to Galadriel and Nargothrond, especially [that word again!?!] considering the earlier citations from OTROP about Nargothrond, and the passage in LOTR.

So I can:

A) never mention the passages, so it looks like I never forgot them [probably not a compelling path to take now]

B) include them in an improvised 'Appendix about Nargothrond' to make it look like I kept the chronology straight...

... when I didn't.
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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Id go for B Elthir and play it cool. Nod 

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:47 pm

I like the idea of trying to discover the final story version, Elthir.  It's what Christopher Tolkien did with the Silmarillion, except that you have to extrapolate and interpolate a bit more, which is why he didn't bring Galadriel fully into the Sil, I guess.   If you get the project done we'd like to see the final result without all the stuffing and wires sticking out!

It also helps me understand the earlier somewhat disparaging comment you made about the Galadriel chapter in Unfinished Tales. You were speaking out of frustration!

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:14 pm

erm I dont like to make daft comments (although its not unheard of Laughing ) but Elthir have you thought of turning all your in depth knowledge of Galadriel into a more story like essay rather than a purely scholarly one? I mean take all your knowledge and make it flow into a tale? sorry if I havent explained it well. Embarassed

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:20 pm

Well, you said it better than I did, for it's what I was trying to say right above. But not being Mancurian I didn't blurt it right out.

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Re: Galadriel and her husband

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:24 pm

Embarassed  its kinda my thing, blurting.

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