Ralph Bakshi version

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Ralph Bakshi version

Post by RA on Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:39 am

I was watching a bit of the old Bakshi cartoon and while it definitely has its problems (to put it lightly Laughing ) I had actually sort of liked the way it handled Boromir's death scene;



The PJ version was very good as well, this isn't intended as a way to bash it. I just really liked this particular scene. Well parts of this scene anyways, mainly Boromir's last stand. It makes me really wish that there wasn't that awful rotoscoping and for it to have been more complete.
Anyways, what are your thoughts on this? Parts of it aren't that bad, right? Right? Razz 

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Forest Shepherd on Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:00 am

I agree somewhat! This is my first viewing of the actual film, and I have to say that even with how terribly bad the orcs look and sound, the scene works surprisingly well emotionally for not having any music once he is first hit with arrows. It is an ignoble and stupid death in this version, and that idea is carried through well. I liked Aragorn's expression when he looks up at Legolas and Gimli.

Fake Edit:
OH wow, Bakshi is responsible for Heavy Traffic. (Saw that on the youtube suggested links)
Where IS the barf emoticon?


And what is up with Tolkien attracting directors originally known for artistic smut or gross-out monster comedies?

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Radaghast on Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:50 pm

The Bakshi version is preferable to me, silly "Viking" outfit notwithstanding. Otherwise, they're not all that dissimilar, though Bakshi's movie doesn't milk it as much.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:21 pm

The odd thing about Bakshi is that pays attention to a lot of details PJ misses whilst at the same time doing some pretty weird things.

So on the one hand we have Bormoir dressed like a viking reject, but on the other hand Aragorn correctly finds him slumped against the base of a tree as he does in the book.

I think someone mentioned it before but the look Aragorn gives to Legolass and Gimli when they arrive is superb, one of my favourite al time moments of animation- I have a lot of admiration for that one look, it conveys so much emotionally and feels so genuine to me- and thats not an easy thing to convey with a few lines of ink.


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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Elthir on Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:08 pm

I like the 'look' too. Not the look of Boromir in a different sense though [or of Sam]. What did B's Hobbiton look like? Can't remember. Hey I saw it when it came out in theaters last century!

And 'Wizards' too... or whatever it was called and I can't remember the story neether.
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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:15 pm

What did B's Hobbiton look like?- Elthir





I approve of grass colour and length Thumbs Up (Neat and well tended-not shaggy and overgrown PJ!!!!! Evil or Very Mad )

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:48 pm

you guys have got to be kidding. Suspect nobody could fill Beans shoes. He IS Boromir

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by RA on Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The odd thing about Bakshi is that pays attention to a lot of details PJ misses whilst at the same time doing some pretty weird things.

So on the one hand we have Bormoir dressed like a viking reject, but on the other hand Aragorn correctly finds him slumped against the base of a tree as he does in the book.

I think someone mentioned it before but the look Aragorn gives to Legolass and Gimli when they arrive is superb, one of my favourite al time moments of animation- I have a lot of admiration for that one look, it conveys so much emotionally and feels so genuine to me- and thats not an easy thing to convey with a few lines of ink.

I think the yell Boromir gives in this version is a powerful thing. He's this strong warrior who can no longer defend himself but even then his yell is enough to give a group pause. Despite all the weird stuff in that scene, it felt very real in a way.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by David H on Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:24 pm

Recoveryanonymous wrote:
Anyways, what are your thoughts on this? Parts of it aren't that bad, right? Right? Razz 
Parts of it are technically quite good, if you take it apart. Petty did a good scene-by-scene comparison that showed how many of the Bakshi scenes influenced Jackson's artwork in FotR. But the list of things that are bad....affraid 

The bottom line is that LotR is a wonderful story, and Bakshi fails to tell it well. Only somebody who already knew the story could make sense of his version. When I first saw it, most of the audience walked out by half way through.
Yes, a lot of Tolkien's language is intact, but honestly, do you really think JRRT would have enjoyed watching this mess? REALLY?? Suspect 
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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:27 pm

nope he wouldnt No you need visual splendour, and mood music.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by RA on Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:34 pm

No, most of the movie is very dull and slow. It has a strange art style and very odd creative decisions were made.
A few parts of some scenes showed some potential I think. It's a shame the rest of the movie wasn't like that.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:45 pm

I agree about the yell RA.
But I disagree Bakshis version is dull and slow.

Confused, truncated, rushed, all these things, but it gets fotr and half of TT into less time than PJ takes for a film. I never found it dull or slow, lots of other things but never those two.

And I think it got more than a bit right underneath the often, surprising, exterior, there are several scenes in it I feel would have improved PJ's, expanded upon a little from Bakshi's- putting conspiracy unmasked elements after the Black Rider encounter to give more character to Merry in particular and to explain why he and Pippin are going along and that they know what the stakes and dangers are, and the dissent in the Fellowship scene when they argue about how to get over the mountains- full of small but defining character moments for each member and sets up uneasiness about Moria and what is in it, are two scenes that spring to mind.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by RA on Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:58 pm

I think Gimli's reaction to discovering Balin's death is handled very subtly with Bakshi. I'll try to find a link.
But unfortunately that's just a moment.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Radaghast on Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:18 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:you guys have got to be kidding. Suspect nobody could fill Beans shoes. He IS Boromir
I don't think Bean was bad (though he doesn't match the book's description), but I doubt nobody else could ever play the part.

Bean did impress as Ned Stark, though.


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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:21 pm

I thought Sean Bean was fine in the part, but I prefer the voice actor in Bakshis, he is also Boromir in the BBC version, where of course he gets even more Tolkien to deliver Nod 

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Radaghast on Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:22 pm

David H wrote:The bottom line is that LotR is a wonderful story, and Bakshi fails to tell it well.  Only somebody who already knew  the story could make sense of his version.  When I first saw it, most of the audience walked out by half way through.
Which makes the fact that it was a financial success rather amazing. 
Yes, a lot of Tolkien's language is intact, but honestly, do you really think JRRT would have enjoyed watching this mess? REALLY?? Suspect 
I can't speak for Tolkien, but maybe he'd have appreciated the effort to stay true to his words more than the big budget of PJ's films. I wonder what Christopher thinks.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Radaghast on Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:25 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Confused, truncated, rushed, all these things, but it gets fotr and half of TT into less time than PJ takes for a film.
Excellent point.
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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Eldorion on Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:52 pm

The Bakshi film is awful.  It's one thing to trot the film out as an example of how PJ could have stuck closer to the book.  It's another thing for the film to actually be good (hell, even for it to be watchable) on its own.  It's absolute garbage.

Also, wasn't the biggest complaint from the ultra-purist brigade about PJ's Boromir death scene that the orcs were just standing around waiting for Boromir to die and letting him attack them?  They do the exact same thing in Bakshi's version. Laughing

Edit: for the record, I don't think Bakshi's film is an example of a "purist approach" to adaptation, but some people (on both sides of the debate, though for opposite reasons) are fond of trotting it out as such.
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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:59 pm

yup I agree 100% its butt ugly garbage too.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by RA on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:01 pm

You've all clearly never been dumpster diving before Rolling Eyes 

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Radaghast on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:05 pm

Eldorion wrote:Also, wasn't the biggest complaint from the ultra-purist brigade about PJ's Boromir death scene that the orcs were just standing around waiting for Boromir to die and letting him attack them?  They do the exact same thing in Bakshi's version. Laughing
I would have to disagree. The orcs in the Bakshi film stop fighting Boromir because after he's shot, they know the fight is over. In the PJ film, Boromir is still miraculously on his feet and able to hew down orcs. There's, realistically, no way a man could keep fighting after being shot with even a single arrow, even a doughty fighter like Boromir. And after each shot, Boromir's opponents seem not to take advantage of the situation (or that's how it looks to me anyway).

To be clear, I'm not singing the praises of the Bakshi film, but I find it handled this scene more logically.


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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:06 pm

The Bakshi film is awful.- Eldo

its butt ugly garbage too- Mrs Figg

Opinions merely given as if they were self evident facts.

I think both Bakshi and PJ's are poor films- but I get more pleasure and less crabbit watching Bakshi's version than I do PJ's.
For me therefore on that measure Bakhi's is the better.

PJ's offends me more because it seems to me to have no love of the source it is using. Bakshi might use the source poorly in its execution as a film but I always feel that it wants to get the book on the screen as it is, not as a self indulgent egotistical re-imagining of it like PJ.

Given the Bakshi version has some odd and random visual choices, some surreal character design and a confused story the fact it still says Tolkien more to me than PJ's only shows how poor an adaptation of Tolkien PJ actually produced.

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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:08 pm

If our opinions are subjective, so are yours


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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Eldorion on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:09 pm

It is self-evident to anyone who judges movies based on their qualities as movies rather than the apparent level of respect the director showed to the author of the source material. Moon

And I can't say I was especially reminded of Tolkien by Bakshi's film when watching it, but to be fair, it's been years.
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Re: Ralph Bakshi version

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:12 pm

No, but I am stating it clearly as an opinion.

I think the Bakshi film is not without merits, and that PJ could have done better cherry picking some adaptation tips from it and not just stealing visual and directional cues from it.

I mean if he was going to so blatantly steal bits from it he could have at least also stolen the few good scripting ideas too.


"It is self-evident to anyone who judges movies based on their qualities as movies "- ELdo

And yet I disagree with you Eldo, so it cant be self evident. I would rather rewatch Bakshis than PJs three films. Using your self-evident standard. PJ's films are therefore self-evidently worse.

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