Other Bad Book Adaptations

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:33 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I would say that GOT is a good example of this, it can go wildly off piste sometimes but it still lives and breathes Martins GOT world.

I agree. The only change I really don't like so far is what they did with the Jon Snow/Halfhand situation, as I've mentioned before. They turned Jon into a killer and an asshole in that scene. Unnecessary and stupid Mad The rest is great, though, so I've decided to let it go for once Nod

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Eldorion on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:26 pm

He wasn't defending the Hitchhiker movie, he just used the franchise as an example of where a more thematically faithful movie COULD have been made.
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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Eldorion on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:31 pm

I didn't think the Halfhand scene was that different from the book, they just made it a little hard to figure out the Halfhand's intentions if you hadn't read the book. But as someone who had, I saw the foreshadowing earlier in the episode as he tried to communicate to Jon what needed to be done.

I think the biggest thematic divergence so far has been making certain characters less morally grey. Turning Tyrion's murder of Shae into self defense is one major example of this.
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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:33 pm

he just used the franchise as an example of where a more thematically faithful movie COULD have been made- Eldo

Yeah its just not a very good example because the only things that links all the different versions is thematic.

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by halfwise on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:33 pm

I thought the hitchhiker movie was far less cringe inducing than the TV series, and for that reason alone I found it quite enjoyable. Still can't hold a candle to the original radio series.

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:37 pm

Radio is best. Book next. The Tv series is terribly budget, effect ect but the characters survive and its largely the cast of the radio show.
The film was too far form the feel of the rest of them for me. Marvin, one of the best characters was terrible in.
Freeman did fine as Arthur, prefer the original but he was a good second choice.

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by halfwise on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:40 pm

The cast of the TV series was largely the same as the radio show?! I may have to watch it again and give it a second chance.

I really liked Mos Def as Ford, I thought that was brilliant casting. Still don't understand how Alan Rickman managed to ruin Marvin so badly.

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:01 pm

Different Ford and different Trillian in the tv series, rest of the main cast are the same (interestingly, and nicely the final radio show made after Adams sad death manages to bring the different versions together- so the actress who played Trillian in the tv series is in the radio show as the 'other' Trillian created on the parallel earth who never left with Zaphod as she went back to get her bag. It also connects the different ending to the original run of radio episodes and the book version)

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Ringdrotten on Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:09 am

Eldorion wrote:I didn't think the Halfhand scene was that different from the book, they just made it a little hard to figure out the Halfhand's intentions if you hadn't read the book. But as someone who had, I saw the foreshadowing earlier in the episode as he tried to communicate to Jon what needed to be done.

I think the biggest thematic divergence so far has been making certain characters less morally grey. Turning Tyrion's murder of Shae into self defense is one major example of this.

To me it seems like Jon is acting in anger, and what foreshadowing there is isn't enough. There's also something about Jon's face as he kills him that doesn't sit right with me. If you see it that way, perhaps I'm missing it. I don't like it anyway Smile Your point about Tyrion is a good one, I've gotten so much used to a more "likeable" Tyrion after watching the show twice that I forgot. There's also the singer that he kills in the books, that doesn't happen in the show.

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Eldorion on Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:11 am

Ringdrotten wrote:To me it seems like Jon is acting in anger, and what foreshadowing there is isn't enough. There's also something about Jon's face as he kills him that doesn't sit right with me. If you see it that way, perhaps I'm missing it. I don't like it anyway Smile

I wasn't able to find all the scenes on YouTube (though I didn't search all that long), but to me it seemed pretty clear that TV!Halfhand knew what he was doing and was trying to get Jon to kill him during their final fight, seeing as he instigated it.  I would have thought that Qhorin whispering "we are the watchers on the wall" to Jon with his dying breath would have cleared up any ambiguity about his intentions, but I've seen enough people complain about the scene that I suppose it was still fairly ambiguous.



Your point about Tyrion is a good one, I've gotten so much used to a more "likeable" Tyrion after watching the show twice that I forgot. There's also the singer that he kills in the books, that doesn't happen in the show.

Yeah, it's a little strange.  Dinklage is great, but I'm not always sure what they're going for with making certain characters more or less sympathetic.  Cersei is another case of someone whose worst deeds were written over (the killing of Robert's bastards, for example, was given to Joffrey instead).  Whereas Stannis the Mannis is less sympathetic and more petulant in the show (but just as much of an asshole Razz).
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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Ringdrotten on Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:18 am

Eldorion wrote:
Ringdrotten wrote:To me it seems like Jon is acting in anger, and what foreshadowing there is isn't enough. There's also something about Jon's face as he kills him that doesn't sit right with me. If you see it that way, perhaps I'm missing it. I don't like it anyway Smile

I wasn't able to find all the scenes on YouTube (though I didn't search all that long), but to me it seemed pretty clear that TV!Halfhand knew what he was doing and was trying to get Jon to kill him during their final fight, seeing as he instigated it.  I would have thought that Qhorin whispering "we are the watchers on the wall" to Jon with his dying breath would have cleared up any ambiguity about his intentions, but I've seen enough people complain about the scene that I suppose it was still fairly ambiguous.

I think you've misunderstood me - it's clear enough what the Halfhand is doing. What annoys me is that he manages to provoke Jon to killing him, and to me it looks like Jon kills him for the wrong reason. He doesn't look angry at Qhorin for making him killing him, he looks angry because Qhorin pissed him off, and that's what I don't like about that scene.

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Eldorion on Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:22 am

I think I see what you mean now; thanks.  I did get the impression that Qhorin's jibes genuinely stung for Jon, but I also interpreted his emotions as being angry over being forced into that situation and generally feeling conflicted.  But that could just be me reading my book-familiarity into the scene. Shrugging
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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Ringdrotten on Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:43 am

"But that could just be me reading my book-familiarity into the scene." - Eldo

I'm doing that a lot myself, I think, but this particular scene stuck out as very wrong for me. I don't know, perhaps I am the one reading things into it. Anyway, it's one scene and one change that I really dislike. The rest I can live with as long as the show stays as good as it has been this far. The minute they go all Jackson on the series I'm cancelling my HBO subscription Laughing

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Bluebottle on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:13 pm

I get what you're saying, Ringo. The last thrust can definitely be seen as an act done in anger. It could also partly be the anger of having to kill one of his brothers, the futility of his situation, at least in part, but I'd agree it's certainly ambiguous.

Eldorion wrote:
Ringdrotten wrote:Your point about Tyrion is a good one, I've gotten so much used to a more "likeable" Tyrion after watching the show twice that I forgot. There's also the singer that he kills in the books, that doesn't happen in the show.

Yeah, it's a little strange.  Dinklage is great, but I'm not always sure what they're going for with making certain characters more or less sympathetic.
 

True. They certainly made him more into a hero character for the series, and removed his more antihero qualities. In the books you kind of can't help liking him despite them, but he definitely has a dark side.

Eldorion wrote:Cersei is another case of someone whose worst deeds were written over (the killing of Robert's bastards, for example, was given to Joffrey instead)


She's an odd one, as she's very much the antagonist in the books, and even her own viewpoint chapters don't paint her in a particulary good light. It will be interesting to see if she leads the seven kingdoms down the same path as in the books this coming season. And of course there is the W-A-L-K to look forward to.

Eldorion wrote:Whereas Stannis the Mannis is less sympathetic and more petulant in the show (but just as much of an asshole Razz).

He's the one people tend to react to, I think. I don't think it's as much down to him being less sympathethic or more petulant, to me anyway, but rather that they changed his motivation and pretty much made him into a religious zealot. In the series he burns lord Florent because he wouldn't renounce his faith and burn his idols to the seven, in the books it's because he tried to sell him out and hand his daughter to the Lannisters. And that's kind of a red line through the whole series, in the books he's pretty despondent, dismissive and even disdainful of the whole R'Hllor faith. Which is much more a thing of his wife and her Queens men.

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Eldorion on Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:23 pm

That's a good point about Stannis, Blue. And I was actually wondering if they'd even include the whole

Spoiler:
"walk" scene for Cersei

given the changed emphasis for her character, but the spy photos from production have confirmed that they will.
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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Bluebottle on Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:47 pm

Yeah, Stannis is the one that leaps out at me. And the view the showrunners have of him is pretty shocking, though I guess it explains a lot.

Compare how they describe him here in their expert opinion, with what Stannis actually says in the books.

http://youtu.be/mWQMqaFm5X0?t=4m30s

http://youtu.be/DaslqlBtSbc

"I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident."


Have you ever seen the Iron Throne? The barbs along the back, the ribbons of twisted steel, the jagged ends of swords and knives all tangled up and melted? It is not a comfortable seat, ser. Aerys cut himself so often men took to calling him King Scab, and Maegor the Cruel was murdered in that chair. By that chair, to hear some tell it. It is not a seat where a man can rest at ease. Ofttimes I wonder why my brothers wanted it so desperately

I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.

And still they paint him as a power hungry individual. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Bluebottle on Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:10 pm

The end of the Benioff interview (the second link) is particularily galling.

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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Eldorion on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:33 pm

Yikes.  You weren't kidding. No

The Stannis in Braavos scene from season 4 was pretty bad in this respect, too, even though it ended up giving Davos a cool moment.
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Re: Other Bad Book Adaptations

Post by Bluebottle on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:03 pm

Oh, we could probably go on finding examples for quite a while. Razz  And, yeah, they often limit Stannis involvement to the benefit of those around him. Not that that storyline has been given much time in general, anyway.

I always felt there was a favouritism in how they treated the characters in their adaption of the books. Which is their prerogative, of course, but it does get rather problematic when they get a character as wrong as they have gotten Stannis.  

And it kind of goes in the complete opposite direction of something George likes to point out about his work. According to him there is a general trend in fantasy to assume that good people makes good rulers, he likes to use Aragorn as an example, but according to him this isn't necesasarily true. There has been some terrible people who have been good rulers, and some good people who have been terrible rulers in history. So he doesn't judge the suitability for his characters to rule on the kind of people they are, which is kind of what Benioff and Weiss are doing here.

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