Tolkien Trivia

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Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:08 am

Hi All!

OK - the Trivia Two-Step will probably be familiar to you all from days spent in a certain Inn in Bree, but for those less well traveled:

Here's the rules:


  • Number your question: keep it consecutive with all previous questions. So I will add question #1 and the next person to ask a question can number theirs #2, and so on. This will be in order for people to reference the question and go back and find it when the answer (or a guess) is given below.
  • Give people at least 24-48 hrs. to guess at your question before you post the answer.
  • Mockery, wit, random answers and general buffoonery is strongly encouraged.


   ...

   Question #1: In the early mythology who lives in the House of the Hundred Chimneys and where is it located?

Hints to follow if anyone is stumped.  This one is pretty damn obscure.   Smile
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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Ringdrotten on Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:11 am

"Mockery, wit, random answers and general buffoonery is strongly encouraged." - sounds like the perfect game for this place Very Happy No idea what the answer to your question is, though, so I'll just stand here while the loremasters do their thing  study

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Eldorion on Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:59 pm

Tol Eressea and I want to say ... Pengolodh? Probably not.
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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:41 pm

If you hadn't said the old mythology I'd say Brandybuck hall, but I suppose that only has a dozen or so.

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Music of the Ainur on Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:01 pm

I can't remember her name, but isn't this from lost tales, in Tol Eressea , the woman who gave the drink that turned Eriol immortal? I will pull the book out to check myself. If someone doesn't correct me first.
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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:30 pm

Tavrobel

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:13 pm

@Figs - correct.

@Eldo - was looking for something a little more specific

Still need the name of the person that lives there...

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:24 pm

scratch  erm a gnome?

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Music of the Ainur on Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:06 am

Question #1: In the early mythology who lives in the House of the Hundred Chimneys and where is it located?

I read in Lost tales 1. page 195: Gilfanon a-Davrobel of Tol Eressea near the tower of Tavrobel
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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Music of the Ainur on Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:15 am

Question #2 : Also from the early mythology.

What were the names of the only two men who witnessed the suns arising in the west and the seeds of Palu'rien burst forth into leaf and bud?
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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:10 am

Gilfanon it is: one of the more prominent story-tellers in the Room of Logs from the Book of Lost Tales. Tavrobel in the tale is the ancient name of Great Haywood in Stratfordshire where Tolkien stayed after his return from France in the winter of 1916-1917. The House of the Hundred Chimneys was said to be Gilfanon's home tho nothing more is said of it in the tale save that it is ancient and stands near the bridge of Tavrobel and that many things may be heard there of both the past and the future. Apparently nobody knew what building there might have caused Tolkien to concoct such a name - but it sure is a good one. So evocative.

My answer to #2 is related: from the outline to Gilfanon's Tale I believe the names are Ermon and Elmir.

I'll make the next one a little easier.

Question #3:

Three Rings for the Elven kings under the sky

A) Who originally possessed the three Elven Rings of Power after they left the hand of their maker, Celebrimbor?

B) What were their names (that is, the names of each ring)?

C) Each ring was associated with an element. What were the different elements each was associated with?



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-J.R.R. Tolkien,  The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (1981), no. 131
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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Music of the Ainur on Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:25 am

I couldn't remember all of this so I had to look some of this up. From the Unfinished tales page 250-51.

A) Vilya & Narya  were given to Gilgalad who gave Narya to
He immediately gave  Narya  to Cirdan> Gandalf (One version has Narya going straight to Cirdan)

Vilya (The most powerful of the three)Gilgalad> Elrond
Nenya was given to Galadriel first I believe

B) Vilya,  Narya, & Nenya
C) Vilya/ Air                 Narya/  Fire          Nenya/ Water

I will have another question up shortly.
Merry Merry to one and all.

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Music of the Ainur on Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:54 pm

If someone wants to post another question feel free. Peace on earth and ELE  rendeer 

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:57 am

You have to allow for seasonally buckied brains Music (except me of course, mine is that way all year) it might take a bit of time for folks to come up with an answer.

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Music of the Ainur on Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:27 am

jon wrote:Gilfanon it is: one of the more prominent story-tellers in the Room of Logs from the Book of Lost Tales.  Tavrobel in the tale is the ancient name of Great Haywood in Stratfordshire where Tolkien stayed after his return from France in the winter of 1916-1917.  The House of the Hundred Chimneys was said to be Gilfanon's home tho nothing more is said of it in the tale save that it is ancient and stands near the bridge of Tavrobel and that many things may be heard there of both the past and the future.  Apparently nobody knew what building there might have caused Tolkien to concoct such a name - but it sure is a good one.  So evocative.

My answer to #2 is related: from the outline to Gilfanon's Tale I believe the names are Ermon and Elmir.

I'll make the next one a little easier.

Question #3:

Three Rings for the Elven kings under the sky

A) Who originally possessed the three Elven Rings of Power after they left the hand of their maker, Celebrimbor?

B) What were their names (that is, the names of each ring)?

C) Each ring was associated with an element.  What were the different elements each was associated with?




Oh I misunderstood what you were looking for. I do remember reading that the Tavrobel in the tale is the ancient name of Great Haywood in Stratfordshire. I thought you meant where The House of the Hundred Chimneys was in the written tales, not in our day to day reality.

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Music of the Ainur on Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:37 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You have to allow for seasonally buckied brains Music (except me of course, mine is that way all year) it might take a bit of time for folks to come up with an answer.

Hey Petty ,
Those grey cells between my ears have had more than their fair share of chemical modifications as well. I thought if you answered correctly you could ask one, sorry my bad. I suppose I was jumping the gun by not waiting until an official judgement, although I did look the question up to make sure my given answer was right.

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:28 am

Rules in Forumshire are more general guidelines Music, if even that!

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:48 pm

Music of the Ainur wrote:Oh I misunderstood what you were looking for. I do remember reading that the Tavrobel in the tale is the ancient name of Great Haywood in Stratfordshire. I thought you meant where The House of the Hundred Chimneys was in the written tales, not in our day to day reality.

No, no.  You got it exactly right.  I was just filling in more details for those that might be unfamiliar.

Also, no need to wait to ask the next question (or to feel obliged to ask the next question).  It's all good!

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Question #3 - that is basically correct Music.  For canonical sources you can go to the appendices (B, The Third Age) and The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power," and get essentially the same information.  Vilya, the most powerful of the Three, derives it's name from one of the realms of Air given in the BoLT, the lowest layer (it is the later given variant of the original, Vilna).

The third Ring, The Ring of Fire, is later given to Gandalf by Círdan.  Since the Three "could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world" we can then assume that the Havens was a place of timelessness during the second and third age previous to c. 1000 TA, as Rivendell or Lorien were, but was then subject to time's ravages and slow decay afterwards.

The Ring of Fire seems particularly suitable for Gandalf as it lends itself to his elemental character, that of fire.  I hadn't got around to talking about this aspect of the Wizards yet but it is important, I think, when considering what the nature of the two Blue might be.

I've talked about Wizards extensively over on Bree but I'd like to continue some of that discussion here, so I'll start a new post.  I'll call it, like the one at Bree, "Concerning Wizards, Necromancers and Ainur".  It can be seen at:

http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t869-concerning-wizards-necromancers-and-ainur-ii

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:40 am

Question #4: In what age did Tom Bombadil likely marry Goldberry?


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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Forest Shepherd on Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:12 pm

The beginning of the Second Age, probably.

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:23 pm

This time the answer is only going to be speculation on my part but backed by some important points in one of the published texts. My post is only about a day old, tho, at this point so I'll delay a bit.

Any other guesses out there?

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:25 am

Answer to Question #4:

Strangely, the Third Age, and pretty far into it.

I thought that my answer here would only be my own wild speculation but once I dug into it I found my suspicions pretty strongly confirmed.

We know that the Barrow-wights are present at the time of Bombadil's wedding.  From The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, first in the collection of poems by the same name, we have (in the latter part of the poem):

Tolkien wrote:

...

Dark came under Hill.  Tom, he lit a candle;
upstairs creaking went, turned the door-handle.
'Hoo, Tom Bombadil!  Look what night has brought you!
I'm here behind the door.  Now at last I've caught you!
You'd forgotten Barrow-wight dwelling in the old mound
up there on hill-top with the ring of stones round.
He's got loose again.  Under earth he'll take you.
Poor Tom Bombadil, pale and cold he'll make you!'

'Go out!  Shut the door, and never come back after!
Take away gleaming eyes, take your hollow laughter!
Go back to grassy mound, on your stony pillow
lay down your bony head, like Old Man Willow,
like young Goldberry, and Badger-folk in burrow!
Go back to buried gold and forgotten sorrow!'

Out fled Barrow-wight through the window leaping,
through the yard, over wall like a shadow sweeping,
up hill wailing went back to leaning stone-rings,
back under lonely mound, rattling his bone-rings.

Old Tom  Bombadil lay upon his pillow
sweeter than Goldberry, quieter than the Willow,
snugger than the Badger-folk or the Barrow-dwellers;
slept like a humming-top, snored like a bellows.

He woke in morning-light, whistled like a starling,
sang, "Come, derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!'
He clapped on his battered hat, boots, and coat and feather;
opened the window wide to the sunny weather.

Wise old Bombadil, he was a wary fellow;
bright blue his jacket was, and his boots were yellow.
None ever caught old Tom in upland or in dingle,
walking the forest-paths, or by the Withywindle,
or out on the lily-pool in boat upon the water.
But one day Tom, he went and caught the River-daughter,
in green gown, flowing hair, sitting in the rushes,
singing old water-songs to birds upon the bushes.

He caught her, held her fast  Water-rats went  scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: 'Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me!  The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill!  Never mind you mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!'

Old Tom Bombadil had a merry wedding,
crowned all with buttercups, hat and feather shedding;
his bride with forgetmenots and flag-lilies for garland
was robed all in silver-green.  He sang like a starling,
hummed like a honey-bee, lilted to the fiddle,
clasping his river-maid round her slender middle.

Lamps gleamed within his house, and white was the bedding;
in the bright honey-moon Badger-fold came treading,
danced down under Hill, and Old Man Willow
tapped, tapped at window-pane, as they slept on the pillow,
on the bank in the reeds River-woman sighing
heard old Barrow-wight in his mound crying.

...


So here the Wights are present both before the wedding, when Tom lives alone, and on the night of the wedding explicitly.

From the Appendices, Appendix A (p. 1017 of my one-volume paperback Houghton Mifflin ed.) we have:

Tolkien wrote:
In the days of Argeleb II the plague came into Eriador from the South-east, and most of the people of Cardolan perished, especially in Minhiriath.  The Hobbits and all other peoples suffered greatly, but the plague lessened as is passed northwards, and the northern parts of Arthedain were little affected.  It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.

What made me think that it might be wild speculation on my part is what I remembered from the very next following paragraph:

Tolkien wrote:
It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrowdowns were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain,  before they crossed the  Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains...

I remembered vaguely that the Barrowdowns went back to a previous, much older age.  But apparently the Wights did not.  The preceding paragraph, quoted above, seems fairly definitive on the time when the Wights actually became present in the mounds.

So... wild speculation on my part?  Seemingly not... but I haven't read everything.  Any other thoughts on the subject?  Anything in other works, like Letters?  It seems the Third Age is it, and fairly late:  Argeleb II reigned during much of the 1600s.  The union is not too much over 1000 years old when Frodo & co. encounter them.  Fairly recent when you consider the thousands of years of the First & Second Ages that precede it.


Last edited by jon on Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : minor grammer/spelling changes to quotations)

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:34 am

Interesting stuff Jon.

In the real world the sort of barrow Tolkien knew from the surrounding countryside would be late Stone Age into the Bronze Age.

It seems Tolkien envisioned them in ME as being similarly ancient and lost in the depths of time. But that the coming of the wights to them was a much later event.
Tom also says he remembers the maiden who wore the broch he took from the barrow for Goldberry.
I had always assumed this grave was from the later period some point not too long before the plague finished off the people there, but it quite possible he is remembering the very first builders.

Its also possible he envisioned the people of the area as continuing on the barrow tradition long after the original FA barrows had existed.

I will do a search of Letters for anything pertinent.

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Re: Tolkien Trivia

Post by jon on Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:47 am

I love that bit in the book where he talks about the brooch - and also the tales by the fire Tom tells in the earlier chapter.  It gives that sense of history and stories beyond stories that Tolkien loved so much and gave his works such depth - very much as in The Bidding of the Minstrel, book II of tBoLT:

' ...

The song I can sing is but shreds one remembers
Of golden imaginings fashioned in sleep,
A whispered tale told by the withering embers
Of old things far off that but few hears keep.'

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