Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:20 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Radaghast wrote:Backing away from the troll and bleating for Aragorn is not cowardly? Suspect

nope. Aragorn is a warrior, its his job.
That's besides the point of what Frodo does.
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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:20 pm

Radaghast wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Running away at the end of Fellowship- in the book he goes not even knowing there is an orc attack- in the film he goes leaving Merry and Pippin to most likely be killed allowing him to escape-book Frodo would never have done that.
I don't even recall this part but, yeah, that's not book Frodo. At all.

You dont recall it because it never happened. Petty has a selective false memory about these things. Basically he makes it up.

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:22 pm

Bluebottle wrote:There's not that much of book Frodo left in the movie to be honest.  Shrugging Time after time he wimps out in the movie. It certainly hurts his character and is one of the changes I struggle most with in the movies.

He is not a wimp. I object to that description. He is gentler and less aggressive than in the book, but that does NOT make him a wimp.

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:24 pm

You dont recall it because it never happened. Petty has a selective false memory about these things. Basically he makes it up.- Mrs Figg



3 minutes in see for yourself.  Shrugging


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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:25 pm

Radaghast wrote:Yes, I think I recall it now. Yeah, it's a punk move on movie-Frodo's part to essentially sacrifice his friends. The whole point of his sneaking off was supposed to be to keep them from danger.

 :facepalm: 

yeah hi you seem to be forgetting THE RING which would have led to the desctruction of Middle Earth. He was determined to complete his mission alone if needs be and that takes extreme courage. It was only Sam forcing him to take him that resulted in him not going it alone. THAT WAS IN THE FILM. Frodo showing COURAGE.

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:26 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:He is not a wimp. I object to that description. He is gentler and less aggressive than in the book, but that does NOT make him a wimp.

Book Frodo: When a huge troll sticks its scaly foot into the door and starts pushing it open, while everyone else is standing resigned to take on the troll and a host of orcs, Frodo runs forward and "Stings" him causing it to withdraw it foot, scoring "one for the Shire!"

Movie Frodo: "affraid  Help me, Aragorn!  affraid " Everyone else appears to be attacking the troll. The Peej seems to have particularly gone out of his way to make Frodo appear cowardly.

Which comes out better?

Of course, from my perspective, the scene in the movie doesn't really work as a whole, but that's a different discussion.
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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:27 pm

Figgs he leaves his friends to be killed as far as he knows whilst he escapes. Book Frodo would never have done that- I even gave an explicit example from the book where he vocalises that he would never leave his friends in danger- the whole point of him 'screwing himself up to go alone' is to protect his friends from danger.

To have him watch them put themselves in danger, for him, and then him run off and leave them- it not the Frodo I know at all from the book.

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:28 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Radaghast wrote:Yes, I think I recall it now. Yeah, it's a punk move on movie-Frodo's part to essentially sacrifice his friends. The whole point of his sneaking off was supposed to be to keep them from danger.

 :facepalm: 
=
yeah hi you seem to be forgetting THE RING which would have led to the desctruction of Middle Earth. He was determined to complete his mission alone if needs be and that takes extreme courage. It was only Sam forcing him to take him that resulted in him not going it alone. THAT WAS IN THE FILM. Frodo showing COURAGE.
Frodo, realized correctly, would not desert his friends to danger, ring or no ring. He would have thought of something else.

Then again, the orcs were highly vulnerable to thrown stones, despite wearing helmets and heavy armor, so maybe Frodo knew what he was doing after all Razz

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:29 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You dont recall it because it never happened. Petty has a selective false memory about these things. Basically he makes it up.- Mrs Figg



3 minutes in see for yourself.  Shrugging


Nope. Its exactly as I said. You make stuff up.

3 against one, piffle.

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:31 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You dont recall it because it never happened. Petty has a selective false memory about these things. Basically he makes it up.- Mrs Figg



3 minutes in see for yourself.  Shrugging
Yeah, seems a rather woefully pointless scene.
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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:32 pm

Nope. Its exactly as I said.- Mrs Figg

You never actually said anything about what is happening in that scene. You only accused me of making it up.

Well the scene is there for all to judge. I dont think I was making anything up- they see him, he sees them, they offer to hide him, he refuses, Merry realises he is leaving, Pippin jumps out, the orcs spot them, merry tells frodo to run, orcs chase Merry and Pippin presumably from Frodos point of view they will most likely catch and kill them (the orcs are right behind them and greatly outnumber them), and Frodo leaves.

Exactly what am I making up?

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:32 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:Nope. Its exactly as I said. You make stuff up.
How is it made up? Frodo sees M & P distract the orcs so he can run off. What are you seeing? Suspect
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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:50 pm

oofa! until you guys give me objective proof instead of these subjective wishy washy faux reasons I cant really continue. Its like fighting with quicksand, the more you fight the deeper into the shit you go. I need PROOF, not negativity based on dislike for Elijah Woods acting or subjective readings or a spin put on from vested interests in disliking EVERYTHING 'just because its PJ'. No one has given me one iota of proof Frodo is a coward because it just aint there, sorry.

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Bluebottle on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:53 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:

He is not a wimp. I object to that description. He is gentler and less aggressive than in the book, but that does NOT make him a wimp.

Yeah, it might not have been the best word to use.  Laughing 

They did however change his reaction to several situations dramatically from the book. I know this is all ifs and buts, but I would be interested to hear what you think was the reason such a change to his character and why you think it was needed?

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:57 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:oofa! until you guys give me objective proof instead of these subjective wishy washy faux reasons I cant really continue. Its like fighting with quicksand, the more you fight the deeper into the shit you go. I need PROOF, not negativity based on  dislike for Elijah Woods acting or subjective readings or a spin put on from vested interests in disliking EVERYTHING 'just because its PJ'. No one has given me one iota of proof Frodo is a coward because it just aint there, sorry.
I don't know what kind of proof you're looking for that you would accept (if you're even looking for it). Frodo backing away from the troll (in nearly a direct contradiction of the book scene), then calling pitiably for Aragorn looks pretty cowardly to me. Letting his friends distract a horde of orcs so he can slip away also seems pretty punk-ass Shrugging

And then there's Arwen rescuing Frodo from the Ring-wraiths. This example might not be cowardice, but it robs Frodo of the chance to show any courage. He is nothing but a passenger here and a mute one at that.

It also misinterprets the effect of the Morgul blade, but that also is a different discussion.


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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:59 pm

Bluebottle wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:

He is not a wimp. I object to that description. He is gentler and less aggressive than in the book, but that does NOT make him a wimp.

Yeah, it might not have been the best word to use.  Laughing 

They did however change his reaction to several situations dramatically from the book. I know this is all ifs and buts, but I would be interested to hear what you think was the reason such a change to his character and why you think it was needed?
Then again, it might have been the best word. Or one of the best Very Happy

One of the problems may be that Wood was too young. He was, what, 18 years old when filming started?
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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Bluebottle on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:03 pm

Haha, well.  Laughing 

I'm not sure I mind Elijah all that much in the role. Though it must be hard to play 50+ at 18. I do struggle a bit with how they adapted the part after he and Sam left the compny in the film however. It never really captured my imagination.

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:18 pm

book Frodo- thinks about leaving his friends and using the ring to escape from the barrowwight. Finds his courage and resolve and instead saves them.

Film Frodo- no version but he does inexplicably run about for ages between the legs of the Black Riders horses so that the rest of them are on the ferry and on there way before he is even starting to catch up with them.
So idiot here, as well as headless chicken.

Book Frodo- Bree- starts to make a speech as a distraction to stop Pippin saying to much. His own self indulgence however leads him to fall when over doing a dance move and he puts the Ring on.

Film Frodo- falls over slipping on someone's foot trying to stop Pippin by charging across the room shouting Pippins name- which incidentally is much more obvious and worse in giving the game away than anything Pippin has just said, as in the film he points Frodo out as Baggins before Frodo even falls over. So Frodo even fails in what he is trying to do, prevent Pippin giving the game away.
In this scene he is not a coward, but he is a complete idiot.

Book Frodo- demands proof of Aragorn before consenting to trust him.

Film Frodo- goes to sleep in his presence without questioning him at all,  which he apparently doesnt even think about until the next day several miles out from Bree.
Again an idiot.

Book Frodo- Weathertop- calls out and invokes the name of Elebereth and attempts to stab the witch-king.

Film Frodo- backs away, drops his sword, and falls over.
Wimp.

Book Frodo- Ford of Bruinen

Refuses to leave his friends in danger until convinced by Glorfindel they would not be in danger unless he is with them.
Challenges the Riders at the Ford and rejects them.

Film Frodo- baggage, does nothing, its all about Arwen, falls of his horse.
Useless.

Book Frodo- gets grabbed by the watcher in the water and cut free, escapes into Mine.

Film Frodo- dangled in the air by Watcher in the Waters, needs rescued and cut down, carried into Moria in Boromirs arms like a helpless baby.

Useless, again.

Book Frodo- stabs the troll with Sting preventing it forcing the door open in the Balins tomb. Fights in the skirmish with the other hobbits, gets hit by a spear thrust from an orc chieftain. Suffers severe winding, and is badly bruised and has difficulties breathing from here till Lothlorein.

Fillm Frodo- hides behind a pillar, cant work out which of the three possible remaining sides of the pillar the huge troll might be behind, gets caught by troll and stabbed with a spear by something weighing several tons. Somehow survives and is well enough to leap across collapsing staircases moments later.
Coward and an idiot, possibly a super being.

Book Frodo- decides to go alone to Mordor in order to save his friends from further danger, leaving even Sam behind as he will not take even him into danger even though he knows it will break Sams heart. Decides to leave entirely of his own violation, is only prevented from doing so by Sam having worked out his plan.

Film Frodo- leaves after watching Merry and Pippin seemingly give their lives so he can do so. Feels sorry for himself standing on the beach and leaves because by this point in the film he no longer has any choice.
Cowardly and driven by circumstances.

And thats just Fellowship and just off the top of my head.  Mad 

Unless of course I'm just making it all up again! And none of this actually happens and I didn't spend all those hours upon hours editing them, it was just a horrible dream (I wish!)

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:24 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Unless of course I'm just making it all up again! And none of this actually happens and I didn't spend all those hours upon hours editing them, it was just a horrible dream (I wish!)
Yeah, don't you know the film trilogy is like Mary Poppins, i.e. practically perfect in every way? Razz


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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Radaghast on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:27 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Book Frodo- stabs the troll with Sting preventing it forcing the door open in the Balins tomb. Fights in the skirmish with the other hobbits, gets hit by a spear thrust from an orc chieftain. Suffers severe winding, and is badly bruised and has difficulties breathing from here till Lothlorein.

Fillm Frodo- hides behind a pillar, cant work out which of the three possible remaining sides of the pillar the huge troll might be behind, gets caught by troll and stabbed with a spear by something weighing several tons. Somehow survives and is well enough to leap across collapsing staircases moments later.
Coward and an idiot, possibly a super being.
Good point. Tolkien treats the mithril shirt as a bulletproof vest, proof against piercing weapons but not bludgeoning force. The Peej seems to treat it as proof against all harm—despite having Frodo react as if he'd been skewered (for the sake of a protracted and maudlin fake death scene where, apparently, the orcs are considerate enough to allow the Company to mourn their falsely dead companion).
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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by bungobaggins on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:44 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:Before the beacons are lit Theoden is still recovering from the subtle influence of Saruman and years and years of Wormtongue poisoning his mind and body. He is still wary bitter and doesnt trust anyone. The beacons are lit, Aragorn rushes into the chamber and in that moment he sees Aragorns face, its a game changer, he throws off his last wavering dithering and becomes a King once more. His sword is returned into his hand, he decides to muster the Rohirrim. I thought it was a brilliant piece of cinema. The drama does exist, the King has returned to Rohan.

That's a lot to infer from what we see on the screen. I know film is a visual medium, but some things need to be explained through dialogue, and I feel like something this elaborate would need that.

Theoden seemed like he was "back to normal" at the end of TTT after Helm's Deep. He also says that the reason he won't help Gondor is because they didn't help him, and Denethor is a big meany face. Theoden even refuses to ask Gondor for aid in TTT.

We don't see him ask for help when the West-fold is burning. Well dude, maybe that was because you were in a magical coma. It didn't seem like anyone asked anyone for help. It seems like the two big rulers of Middle-earth are men driving their respective family cars, refusing to ask for directions, and then getting mad when no one offers them directions.  :facepalm:
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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by malickfan on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:46 pm

Well I'll just say The LOTR film trilogy introduced me to Tolkien (and Christopher Lee) (though I may have read The Hobbit a bit earlier in school) so for that I'll be internally thankful.

I can't really say why I like the films anymore-I'm not sure I will as I haven't watched them in years, and I'm no longer a 10 year old Tolkien novice. That said I'm sure I'll have problems with the script and Action scenes, but the cinemtography, pace performances (well, mostly) set design and all round impressive dedication by the crew would likely still impress me.

They are fun films, and actually come across as adaptations, not overlong overblown videogame bastardizations sinking under the weight of their own indulgence, unlike The Hobbit.

Or maybe they are awful as films and adaptions I can't remember and I can't currently be bothered to find out.

 Shrugging 

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Ringdrotten on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:59 pm

Much for the same reasons as Figg - the music, (most of) the characters, landscapes, costumes (most of) the actors. I do tend to skip Frodo scenes, and I've major issues with Galadriel, Queen of Slow Motion Retard Talk. There are some additons I don't like and some I don't mind. I think the only scene in LotR that makes the crabbit rage within me is the scene where Gandalf has his staff broken, but I've expanded on that several times before so I'm not going to do it again here. There is something grand and adventurous and epic about the LotR trilogy that's not in TH. I don't know what it is, but it doesn't really matter. I hate one and love the other - simple as that Shrugging

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:29 pm

Tolkien treats the mithril shirt as a bulletproof vest- Rhadagast

This is why when people say PJ's TH is more unlikely I dont see it, there a lot more of it, but its still the same chucking away of physical things having any effect- Tolkien has Frodo stabbed by a spear thrust from a roughly mannish sized beast and he is injured and hampered by it, just not in anyway fatally.

In the film not only is the thing thrusting the spear at him huge, beyond his slow-mo fake death scene he is absolutely fine.

Same goes for Pippin when the troll chucks him off its shoulder and he he lands smack on his back with force, from height on a solid stone floor and is fine.
And Merry's legs should have been dislocated when he is being held by one and swung about all over the place.

In other sorts of fantasy film that wouldnt matter- but when adapting an author who bases getting you to believe in the fantastical on first getting you to believe in the reality of the world he presents its a terrible mistake.
I find it all the more bemusing for the fact they thought to do things like plant the Shire location up a year before to get it looking lived in and real- and then they just keep throwing all the hard work on creating a believable world on nonsense like the troll scene. Its self defeating and undermines all the hard work done by those trying to create the impression of a reality.

"the cinemtography, pace performances (well, mostly) set design and all round impressive dedication by the crew would likely still impress me."- Malick

This is true for the most part for me too. And there can be no doubting the dedication of sheer hard graft that went into it all even from the most ardent of PJ's detractors.
Just makes it all the sadder it was all in service of three increasingly poor scripts.

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Re: Tell Me Why You Liked The LOTR Movies

Post by azriel on Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:36 pm

The issue with Frodo does seem to raise a few hackles !  Smile  I honestly feel that Elijah was to young to play Frodo, he tried to do his best for such a young age & he WAS young, poor lad didnt have the experience to give the role substantial "meat". But, getting away from whether Elijah was wimpy or not, I enjoyed the sets. I loved the costumes,weaponry, armor, leather work, buildings,scenery, the music was spot on, & Im bloody fussy when it comes to music I can tell you ! it can make or break a film ....notice I havent mentioned characters yet ? Well, we MUST stick true to the BOOKS characters so we can gain respect, trust, love or hate. I was sad by the little inclusion of the Elves. There was no Glorfindel for one. They did play a part in aiding Frodo also. Sam, for me, was the strongest part, whether because Sean played it very well & I believed in him cos of his acting, I dont know. But Sean was older & he HAD to act pretty strong, to prop up Elijah's depiction of Frodo IMO.

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