Doctor Who [8]

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:04 pm

From what Ive read about the way things are set up RTD was much more hands on with other peoples scripts than Moffat is.
RTD was well known for extensive rewrites of some other peoples scripts.

Moffat seems to take a quite different approach, he sets up the story arcs, and he writes the opening episode, the mid season episode and the finale (usually but not always 2 episodes)- but he doesn't rewrite the other scripts to the same degree.
The original script for The Girl Who Waited is a good example. The original was way too complicated and timey-wimey even by Moffats standards and he worked with the writer to simplify it right down to the core, but it doesn't seem Moffat rewrote any of it, he just guided the direction of it.
The Doctors Wife is another example- it was originally meant for series 5 but got moved for budget reasons to series 6- so originally there was no Rory in it as he had ceased to exist by then in series 5.
Moffat got Gaiman to rewrite all the Amy in the TARDIS scenes to include Rory. But he didn't just rewrite those parts himself as I think RTD probably would have.

They are such very different styles its hard to say how much of an effect it has- one effect I think it has is Moffat Who is moe imaginative episode to episode than RTD's ever was, but RTD is more consistent in tone across a series than Moffats as it has the RTD flavour and taste throughout.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by malickfan on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:10 pm

I think Moffat is a better sci fi writer and more imaginative storyteller but RTD was a better showrunner and 'family show' man.

Toby Whithouse, Nicnholas Briggs and Paul Cornell would be my picks as next showrunners.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:17 pm

I'd say that was true. Moffat revels in the fantastical, the alien, the absurd and RTD did everything he could to keep the show grounded on solid earth (quite literally most of the time, modern day London earth to be precise!).

I honestly dont know about the next showrunner- Moffat was a clear front runner- every episode he had written at that time for Who had become an instant fan favourite, although I like the writers you mention I wouldnt say any one of them has an unblemished Who record in that same way Moffat had before he got the gig.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:54 pm

The final 7 minutes of Time of The Doctor- spoilery obviously as well as likely to make fans of 11 like me get something in their eye  Crying or Very sad


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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by malickfan on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:56 pm

My wishlist for season 8:

1) Uninterrupted Run
2) If possible entirely two parters
3) No romance
4) The  sonic gets blown up in the first five minutes
5) Captain Jack Returns
6) The Sea Devils return
7) A new male companion, from the 18th-20th century-shake it up a bit to get a new perspective

8. Clara to gain a character arc
9) F*ckity Bye Bye Daleks!

And post season 8...a multi doctor story with Paul Mcgann serving as a jumping off point for a spin off...

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:06 pm

Its the BBC so I doubt we will get 1- but Im with you on hoping for it.

2- I wouldnt go all for two parter- some stories- Fathers Day, Blink, Girl in the fireplace work great at 45 minutes- but there needs to be a return to two part episodes (although everything from Name of the Doctor onwards is one big story really)

3- I think there might be but not between companion and Doctor , but between companions.

4- The 5th Doctor had that happen to his and never used one, so it can be done, but on the other hand do we also want to go back to the days when just locking him in a room was an effective trap? I agree with downplaying its use (but I suspect the BBC marketing division might get a bigger say in this than even the showrunner)

5- I am not sure what s left for him to do in Who after Torchwood (and Miracle Day was awful).

6- Yes to that , but without the string vests this time!

7- I think this is very much on the cards to maintain the young female demograph. I expect a new male companion to join the crew pretty quickly after the series starts. This will also give Clara something to do in terms of building a personality outside of the Doctor.

9- (what happened to 8?  scratch ) Daleks should be used sparingly and only when you've a really good idea for what to do with them. Despite some questionable plotting moments I enjoy Asylum of the Daleks because I like the Daleks in them- and if they would do a good Davros stroy of the quality of Genesis of the Daleks or Big Finishes I, Davros that would be very acceptable indeed.  Nod

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by malickfan on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:22 pm

For some reason eight) is Cool.

Maybe Capaldi could just use his Stare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNjdcFGWuKI for a sonic?


I still haven't been fortunate to listen to much Big Finish, but I can certainly see hearing the daleks instead of seeing them day in day out would shake things up a bit.

Didn't watch Miracle Day (and don't want to), but I'm just excited by Jack seeing Frobisher flying the tardis, Jack is a fan favourite as well so I don't think there will be many complaints 

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Norc on Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:06 pm

i am gonna say something honest here. i hate the daleks. i don't find them scary and (as the doctor points out) they use an aweful long time to say anything. they're freaking annoying. asyulum of the daleks was good yes, but whenever a dalek appears i am like "really?"

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:47 pm

It comes down to how they are used, which should be sparingly, in classic Who they tended to either crop up a lot in a short space of time or not at all for years.

For me the best Dalek episodes are ones they are in, but not ones staring them.
Genesis is great because its about two races fighting to extinction and about how Davros created the first Dalek and it has a huge moral dilemma about if an individual has the right to wipe out a species, even if that species is destructive to others. The Daleks are merely the threat, all the interactions are with people and Davros, who can emote.

The problem comes when Daleks are required to interact a lot with each other or the Doctor. When they are just used as a threat they can be very effective- as I thought they were in the Time episode at the start when the Doctor went onto their ship and all you saw was all the eye stalks lighting up in the dark around him- they were less effective trundling along out in the open. This has always been true of the Daleks- you need to give them a more human face as a go between- like Davros, or what Moffat seems to have favoured, the Dalek-people with the eyestalks, to bring a relatable side to them.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Bluebottle on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:14 pm

And there's even more to get around to ?

I see the opinions are quite divided on this one. Might have to see it myself then.  Laughing 

I kind of agree on the Daleks. They've been seriously misused in the new series. I do think the idea behind them, the superiority and complete lack of mercy, can be terrifying when used correctly. But let's just say they haven't always been.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:29 pm

I see the opinions are quite divided on this one.- Blue

We are Whovians, opinions are ALWAYS divided.  Twisted Evil 

Might have to see it myself then.- Blue

Well you have until probably August which is when the next series is likely to air.


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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:37 pm

my wishlist is
1. Moffat bye bye.
2. no more Stone Angels ever.
3. no more smart arse timey wimey brain ache plots
4. no more women as Doctor fangirls
5. no more 'feisty' females.
6. Women Writers to give a new dimension
7. Bring back Rorys dad, Wif, Donna for cameos (and Jack  Wink )
8. A quirky oddball assistant, male or female
9. A Doctor who doesnt have cute bowties or a sonic fetish, but one who takes us back to just telling a damn good story.
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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:41 pm

At the risk of being controversial Who doesnt have a good history with female writers (Doctors 6 and 7 had more female writers than NuWho has ever had and looked what happened there!), or Torchwood for that matter which had more- they were all awful episodes.
Now I am not saying women cant write scifi- I am DC Fontana fan- but they dont seem to do it very often for some reason and when they get the chance the results are often not very good. Its a bit of a puzzler.
I would think RTD and Moffat have looked to get female writers on board, but neither seem to have found anyone of the requisite standard so far.
Again I dont know why not, but it seems to be the case.

edit add- just did a check- NuWho has had one female writer- Helen Raynor- RTD gave her not one, not two , but four episodes- two two part stories- sadly both are awful- the particularly terrible- Daleks in Manhatten/Evolution of the Daleks and the equally shoddy Sontaran Stragetgy/The Poison Sky- so she got a big deal- two two parters and two of the shows main villians. Sadly its not hard to see why she wasnt asked back after that.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by halfwise on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:50 pm

Daleks look like shop-vacs. I just can't conjure much fear of a shop-vac.

Ursula Le Guin is arguably the best female science fiction/fantasy writer ever, but there's precious few of them, which is funny given that women are every bit as voracious readers of scifi as men are. I think it may have to do with the historical dream factor: women don't see other women writing sci-fi, so don't dream about doing it themselves quite so much.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:53 pm

In the past Who at least was very much the domain of the male, there was no such thing (at least publicly) as a female Doctor Who fan.
Things have definitely changed on that front however and I would hope that in the future there will be female Who writers that, like the current writers, grew up watching the show.

On the Dalek issue Halfy if you like radio plays listen to I, Davros (its on my skydrive) or failing that watch Genesis of the Daleks (you can find it on dailymotion) and then bare in mind that the audience that first saw a Dalek were the children of those who fought the Nazis. And then you might ge the fear even if you dont personally feel it. (oh and it helps with the voices to bear in mind the Doctors belief that because they are trapped in a shell from birth to death thats why they always sound as i they are on the verge of hysterical screaming)

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Bluebottle on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:08 am

The daleks work when they treanscend their other failings I guess. Shrugging 

I would agree they haven't often done that in New Who.


I'm also interested to see who the next showrunner will be.

I kind of agree it's time for Moffat to start thinking about moving on at some point. I feel his era now culminated with the 50th , and someone else should be given a go.

The last thing the program needs is another John Nathan Turner. Think how differently he would have been remembered if he had left with Davison.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:13 am

Thats an old chestnut. Its like saying why were there no women Old Master painters. Its not because women cant paint, its not because women cant write sci-fi, its the culture and traditionally male dominated TV writing itself, and then geekdom, have both, historically, been seen as male pursuits. especially in the UK, where genre television seems to be entirely the work of a small group of male writers. Its a boys club basically. And here's the REALLY insidious thing. The people who read and select these scripts are for the most part male. So, when presented with a script written by a woman who does not tailor her scripts it to fit the male gaze, they will automatically reject it because it's "not as good", because it just doesn't focus on the validation of a white dude's existence.
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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:17 am

That doesnt explain why when a woman does get a go and gets two, two part episodes they are so poor she doesn't get asked back again.
I don see RTD at the time excluding female writers as an option, or having the usual male preoccupations regarding more feminine perspective material. Yet it seems he couldnt find a good, regular female writer for Who.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:22 am

duh! what about the male Writers who dont get asked back? or are you saying she was crap because she was female? because thats what it sounds like.
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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:24 am

No I am saying I find it odd that its so hard to get female writers- and the only one they have got was crap. Which is also odd as it implies there was not much of a quality pool to pick from in the first place.
And it cant be said she didnt get a good go, there are writers would kill for four episodes of Who.

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Bluebottle on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:28 am

To be fair, more than a few of the male ones were crap as well.  Laughing 

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:29 am

so basically female Writers are crap at sci-fi? just spit it out, own it, you think only men are good enough to write for Who. and thats why women dont get hired. You just explained it perfectly.
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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:31 am

more than a few of the male ones were crap as well- Blue

Yup they were, but there always seem to be more from the pool of male scifi writers to draw from, whereas the female scifi writers well is all but dry for some reason.

so basically female Writers are crap at sci-fi? just spit it out, own it, you think only men are good enough to write for Who.- Mrs Figg

Yes that it precisely, thats why I cited DC Fontana as one of my scifi writing heroes (its the first scifi I read in fact and along with Who was also the first tv scifi I watched)  Rolling Eyes 

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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:45 am

so why imply there are no female Writers capable of writing for Who then? you cant just mention one writer and hope its enough to stave off worries about your implied sexist remark.
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Re: Doctor Who [8]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:49 am

why imply there are no female Writers capable of writing for Who then?- Mrs Figg

I am posing the question, why isn't there?

There is clearly a problem- not only are there very few female writers writing in this genre it seems, those there are dont always seem to be exactly the cream of the crop (possibly as the numbers are fewer for women, perhaps for some reason they are less interested in writing scifi or seem less inclined to), and unlike when that happens with male writers there is no bigger pool of writers to dip into to replace them with.

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